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epsom derby 2018

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By:
impossible123
When: 03 Jun 18 14:15
I'd consider differing opinions nevertheless, it is my money and my decision alone when it comes to backing a horse - others immaterial, If wrong I only have myself to blame, no one else; been profitable so far, and long may it continue.

'kincsem', your posts do not inconvenience me, a tad too intelligent for my simple horse racing mind. But carry on...I'll cotton on slowly but surely and (eventually).
By:
FELTFAIR
When: 03 Jun 18 15:20
been profitable so far, and long may it continue.

How come Bungle,never known you back a winner?
By:
Angela Rebecchi
When: 03 Jun 18 15:28
Deep Impact horse Study Of Man just won the French Derby.
By:
impossible123
When: 03 Jun 18 16:05
Saxon Warrior has been installed 4/5 fav with 'ladcrookes/ok koral' in the Irish Derby with Masar at 7/4; shame no market here yet. An excellent opportunity to lay him again, I think.
By:
Angela Rebecchi
When: 03 Jun 18 16:08
Masar had the perfect stall draw, handled the track much better, and Saxon had the worst stall draw. I think last time out was the time to cash in on the mad price discrepancies Cool
By:
SOULDANCER
When: 03 Jun 18 16:56
French Derby 1m 2 and 1/2 furlongs, though.
By:
Jack Bauer '24'
When: 03 Jun 18 17:24
His dam is a daughter of Miesque by Storm Bird so a mile would probably have been as far as she would have wanted.
By:
Jack Bauer '24'
When: 03 Jun 18 17:36
Sorry, I meant Storm Bird's son, Storm Cat.
By:
Angela Rebecchi
When: 03 Jun 18 17:51
Study Of Man was begging for the line too, wouldn't want any further that's for sure !
By:
PeteTheBloke
When: 03 Jun 18 18:34
Well done winners, and HM with the Roaring Lion e/w tip.
By:
Andrew in Sweden
When: 03 Jun 18 18:49
Saxon Warrior has been installed 4/5 fav with 'ladcrookes/ok koral' in the Irish Derby with Masar at 7/4; shame no market here yet. An excellent opportunity to lay him again, I think.

There is a market up here and it's blank, so now is your Golden opportunity to back up an opinion with hard cash.
By:
sageform
When: 03 Jun 18 18:57
The most embarrassing thing about the Derby was Matt Chapman doing the official presentations. Everyone was cringing as he announced the winning connections and who told him that Buick was the Godolphin number 1 jockey? Sheikh Mo didn't seem amused by that one. Saeed will not give him a ride and nor would Fabre although I am a big Buick fan.
By:
Madhu
When: 03 Jun 18 20:35
kincsem - If Jack Bauer '24' or anyone else wants to read my posts on the thread on my analysis of Saxon Warrior's pedigree (sire and dam) come back with something more than the word "nonsense".  … go through the above one at a time and debunk each of my comments.

My posts are all fact based, the racing record of Deep Impact and Maybe, their progeny in Europe, how the AWD (average winning distance) shown on the Racinp Post of 10.1f for Deep Impact is based on less that ten 3yo maiden winners in class 4,5,6 races in GB/IRE and should never be used.

My post also stated that I listed all the wins from the best 350 Deep Impact progeny that I could find (they had 201 wins) and calculated Deep Impact's AWD as 9.4f.


Sandown comfortably rebutted your AWD stuff.

Deep Impact was 3rd in the 12f Prix de l"Arc de Triomphe, passed twice in the last furlong, and even then he was on a prohibited substance to aid his breathing.

That Arcrun was imo an indication that he did not stay 12f, although every man and his dog knows about his Japanese wins in races longer than that.


Yes Deep Impact was positive tested to Ipratropium, however, the horse had history of respiratory problems and there was a language barrier between his trainers’ representatives and French veterinary support. It carried enormous shame in Japan for his trainer and if you follow DI on twitter you are sure to come across the dedicated trolling against the horse to this day. However, you would have to be insane to think they would send a horse thousands of miles away in a foreign racing jurisdiction to intentionally run the horse pumped-up on enhancement drugs in one of the most prestigious race in the world. This is not the “allowable” injecting of ten-fold amounts pre-race like professional cyclists do in secret. This was not a cobalt case or something out of the film Lean on Pete. John Gosden's Nannina after Coronation Stakes- John Gosden, said it had been "the most unpleasant experience I've been through in my whole time in horse racing. We are talking about a routine veterinary treatment, where the withdrawal date was beyond the normal given, an extra day and a half before, and after a month of testing they have come back with an infinitesimal trace."  It is also a prescription drug used in the management of bronchial asthma.

I can not find a Japanese runner by Deep Impact that has won a 12f European Group 1 race (has one won a 12f Group 2 or Group 3?).

There have only recently been a couple bred by Coolmore (Wisconsin) since they were allowed access, a few bred by French breeders ( Ecurie Wildenstein), and a few bought by  Qatar Racing in the last couple of years. And after all Saxon Warrior is from Deep Impact’s eighth crop that was conceived in the year after Gentildonna became the only horse to have won the Japan Cup twice.

And I posted that Deep Impact has led the Jananese 2yo sire lists every year, indicating precocity/early maturity for his runners, possibly not ideal for a 12f Derby runner.

Deep Impact could produce good 12f horses, but I think to do that he should be matched with quality staying mares.


As already stated just a quick perusal of the pedigrees of the dams of some of Deep Impact’s best middle distance offspring in Japan, that of Gentildonna Japan Cup (2012, 2013), Yushun Himba (Japanese Oaks) (2012), Shonan Pandora Japan Cup (2015), Deep Brillante Tokyo Yushun (Japanese Derby) (2012), Kizuna Tokyo Yushun (2013), Makahiki Tokyo Yushun (2016), and Satono Diamond  2013 Kikuka Sho (Japanese St. Leger), are dominated by speed and mostly from mares imported into Japan. Just the other day Deep Impact sired another winner of the Tokyo Yushun (Japanese Derby) in Wagnerian. 

I have to agree with others here. You have been overly selective in your use of statistics on this occasion to best suit your argument and have made huge assumptions, and moreover, you have also been a bit sly in your analysis by all accounts.

kincsem you further posted-

Conclusion by Deep Impact, 10th of 10 runners in the Group 3 10f Gallinule Stakes at The Curragh today beaten 40 lengths "pushed along over 3f out, soon dropped to rear and eased under 2f out"  and Conclusion? 10f was too far for him.


Here you managed to somehow cut and paste an incomplete in running comment: the full one was- Raced in mid-division, pushed along over 3f out, soon dropped to rear and eased under 2f out, saddle slipped. His saddle slipped! And as Sandown pointed out, he was 25lbs inferior on ratings anyway.

Moreover kincem when you listed his times in middle distance races:

12f firm in 2:23.30
12.5f in 2:31.90
12f (Arc 3rd) in 2:26.30
12f in 2:25.10
12.5f in 2:31.90


Here you manage to omit the fact that Deep Impact’s win in the 2006 the Tenno Sho (spring) was run in a world record at that time for a 3200 meter (Abt 16 f / 2 miles) race (3'13"4).

You repeated over and over-

A sire that on the Racing Post website has only 18 runners in GB/IRE Sorry for going into so such detail, but is anyone having a look at facts? Why don't you check through all the Deep Impact horses that have run in GB/IRE and tell me how they got on over 10f, 12f, and further.

Well the RP 9/18 winners/runners is obviously an extremely limited pool and far too small to draw any meaningful conclusion or “facts” on his European runners as you suggest.

Furthermore you emphasise -

Saxon Warrior is by Deep Impact out of Maybe (out of Sumora) race record and offspring It was the dam of Sumora, Rain Flower, who produced the English Oaks 12f winner, Dancing Rain (by Danehill Dancer).

Yet I find it hard to believe anyone can just dismiss in their pedigree analysis the fact that Saxon Warrior’s second dam is closely related to Dancing Rain or that his third dam is a three-parts-sister to Dr Devious out of Rose Of Jericho (by Alleged), a full-sister to top-class three-miler chaser Legal Right, who produced the 1991 Greenlands Stakes winner Archway along with Royal Court (Sadler's Wells) who was placed in the Great Voltigeur Stakes and won the Ormonde Stakes as a four-year-old and a useful  Danehill colt Hill Country who won and was Listed placed over 12f.

When you ask – “If Jack Bauer '24' or anyone else wants to read my posts on the thread on my analysis of Saxon Warrior's pedigree (sire and dam) come back with something more than the word "nonsense" - it sounds like you are sitting at home like a Cheshire cat with cream on your lips even though all four of your picks finished in the last five home and all were beaten by 17l or more. I think your overall analysis is deeply flawed and you got luck on the day. We’ll see about the stamina of Deep Impact progeny in Europe.

Knight To Behold 22.34 €161.67  €3,450.10
The Pentagon 50.00 €6.00  €294.00
Sevenna Star 75.63 €40.00  €2,985.25
Kew Gardens 94.51 €72.98  €6,824.62
By:
impossible123
When: 03 Jun 18 21:50
Oh yes, I sure will, soon...with the winnings from laying him at Epsom. I shall back Masar and Delano Roosevelt as I do not think Saxon warrior will run; more likely Eclipse bound the race being 1m 2f, and he's 8/1, a price even the boys would find difficult to resist.
By:
Andrew in Sweden
When: 03 Jun 18 22:33
If you don't think he will run in the Irish Derby, then the obvious bet is to put up a lay now and attract those that think he will run (me included) before he's not declared (in your opinion). That is a far better bet than backing Masar to win, it's free money if you're correct.

As for the Coolmore lads, do you really think they look at odds of their runners before deciding where to run ?
By:
impossible123
When: 03 Jun 18 23:31
You are beginning to sound like one of those Samaritans who trolls the threads and shouts down any posters with genuine differing views to yours or new useful info eg 'kincsem and domino14'.

Where did i say the boys would look at the odds of their runners before deciding where to run? Think about it!  In the Derby SW might not have acted on the track - not that Moore was much of an assistance; SW could be under the weather, or outstayed as some had said he did run to the line even though he lost 3rd at the finish. I firmly believe SW was not himself, and Masar and DEX stayed better than him. And I shall put my money where my mouth is, have always done.

I do not bet on the Exchange to profit from others' non-runner (deliberately). I know what odds I'd like to lay now, next week, and there after. If I like I'd accommodate to prove a point - the vindication is more precious and satisfying than the financial reward; you could make your position clear on the Exchange for SW in the Irish Derby, and I might accommodate you and others too, accordingly.

Connections of SW ain't stupid. They could see SW was never at ease at any stage of the race, and when he got out - he was deliberately hemmed in  for a while - he could not make up significantly more ground than it cost me - he was still 4.5l down to Masar the winner and 2l down on RL both horses he beat in the 2000G 1st time out. To me that inferred these two horses stayed better than me over 12f.

As always horse racing is mainly opinions with a bit of luck thrown in sometimes courtesy of the jockey.
By:
kincsem
When: 04 Jun 18 01:43
Madhu
sandown comfortably rebutted your awd stuff.

please give the date and time of the post and i will address it.
By:
kincsem
When: 04 Jun 18 01:47
Madhu
Yes Deep Impact was positive tested to Ipratropium, however, the horse had history of respiratory problems and there was a language barrier between his trainers’ representatives and French veterinary support


The point is the horse was disqualified.  even with drug assistance he did not stay 12f and was passed by two horses near the finish.. 
Your comments about cyclists and other doping cases have nothing to do with the Arc
By:
kincsem
When: 04 Jun 18 02:05
Quoting Japanese races is I think irrelevant as they are run on flat tracks on firm ground, nothing like Epsom with a 134 foot hill to climb.  I again stress this, Japanese racing is irrelevant to Epsom.
The analysis was about Saxon Warrior at Epsom.  The thread title is Epsom Derby 2018.

Madhu
I have to agree with others here. You have been overly selective in your use of statistics on this occasion to best suit your argument and have made huge assumptions, and moreover, you have also been a bit sly in your analysis by all accounts.

Madhu says “overly selective use of statistics” – elaborate
Madhu says “huge assumptions” elaborate
Madhu says “sly in your analysis” - elaborate

Madhu, making negative generalisations is not what is needed.
If you think I made overly selective use of statistics explain that comment and put up the fuller version of the statistics.

What are the huge assumptions?.  i think my assumption that Saxon Warrior might struggle with an Epsom 12f was closer to the mark than these.
"Saxon Warrior can outbattle rivals with longer trip ideal" - Pedigree Analysis headline - our Dosage expert Steve Miller, Racing Post Weekender
"Saxon Warrior has all the necessary qualities to land the Derby" - Stuart Redding with all the best bets - Racing Post Weekender ("the extra half mile is not just well within his reach but likely to improve him")

Explain "sly in your analysis"?
Perhaps English is not your native language and you meant astute?
By:
kincsem
When: 04 Jun 18 02:10
Madhu
Here you managed to somehow cut and paste an incomplete in running comment: the full one was- Raced in mid-division, pushed along over 3f out, soon dropped to rear and eased under 2f out, saddle slipped. His saddle slipped! And as Sandown pointed out, he was 25lbs inferior on ratings anyway.


Here I am not sure. 
Was the “saddle slipped” comment added later to the comments in running? 
It may have been reported by connections and added later

Let us see how this horse does in his next race.
Guess what?
Conclusion  by Deep Impact is still a maiden after five races.
He is entered in a Gowran Park maiden race today and let us hope there are no saddle problem.
I though Aidan O’Brien was very careful when saddling his runners.
By:
kincsem
When: 04 Jun 18 02:25
Madhu
Here you manage to omit the fact that deep impact’s win in the 2006 the tenno sho (spring) was run in a world record at that time for a 3200 meter (abt 16 f / 2 miles) race (3'13"4).


Who cares about a Japanese 3200 metre world record.  How many races are in the world at 3200 metres?
I would guess none in IRE/GB/USA. as we run miles, furlongs, yards.
I doubt Australia runs a race as long as 3200 metres.
That probably leaves GER/ITY/FR/JPN with a 3200 metres race.
Who races almost exclusively on firm ground?  Japan.  World record!

Here are a few 3000+ metres races in this part of the world from my Group race database from 1900 to now.
Grand Prix de Paris, Longchamp, 3000 metres (until 1986)
La Coupe, Longchamp, 3000 metres (until 1968)
Prix Berteux, various tracks, 3000 metres (discontinued 2004)
Prix de Barbeville, Longchamp, 3100 metres, Group 3
Prix de Lutece, Longchamp, 3100 metres, Group 3
Prix du Cadran, Longchamp, 4000 metres
Prix du Pin, Longchamp, was 3000 metres (now reduced to 1400 metres)
Prix Gladiteur, Longchamp, 4000 metres, now 3100 metres
Prix Hubert de Chaudenay, Longchamp, 3100 metres
Prix Kergolay, Deauville, 3000 metres

I could go on and on.

Guess what?  None of the above races are at the Japanese distance where they are claiming a world record.
Why not make a race for 3333 metres?  Another world record for the first horse to run it.


You have cut and pasted select pieces of what I wrote destroying the sense.
I pointed out that Japanese middle distance races on firm pancake flat tracks have no relation to the conditions at Epsom, where the average Derby time is more than 10 seconds slower than those Japanese hard oval tracks.
That was the point.  Japanese racing has nothing to do with Epsom.
By:
kincsem
When: 04 Jun 18 02:35
Madhu
Yet I find it hard to believe anyone can just dismiss in their pedigree analysis the fact that Saxon Warrior’s second dam is closely related to Dancing Rain or that his third dam is a three-parts-sister to Dr Devious out of Rose Of Jericho (by Alleged),
a full-sister to top-class three-miler chaser Legal Right, who produced the 1991 Greenlands Stakes winner Archway along with Royal Court (Sadler's Wells) who was placed in the Great Voltigeur Stakes
and won the Ormonde Stakes as a four-year-old and a useful  Danehill colt Hill Country who won and was Listed placed over 12f.



An Oaks winner and a Derby winner were stated to be in the pedigree of Saxon Warrior.
They were not.
One parent of each of those horses was in the pedigree

Dancing Rain (Oaks winner) is by Danehill Dancer out of Rain Flower
Sumora (5f sprinter) is the 2nd dam of Saxon Warrior and is by Danehill out of Rain Flower.
You should accept that the horse in the Saxon Warrior pedigree was a 5f sprinter and not a 12f Oaks winner.

What has Archway got to do with Saxon Warrior?
Almost nothing.
Rose of Jericho is one of 30 horses in the first four generations of saxon warrior.
She has nine offspring in my database.
It is very strange that Dr Devious (male) by Ahonoora and Archway (male) by Thatching are quoted but the horse on the damline of Saxon Warrior is Rain Flower (female) by Indian Ridge.
And in this pedigree the offspring of Rain Flower is a 5f sprinter (not a 12f classic winner).
Do you think a mare in the 4th generation is more important than the dam, Maybe (a 7f, 8f winner), or the 2nd dam Sumora (a 5f sprinter)?
By:
kincsem
When: 04 Jun 18 03:02
Madhu
When you ask – “If Jack Bauer '24' or anyone else wants to read my posts on the thread on my analysis of Saxon Warrior's pedigree (sire and dam) come back with something more than the word "nonsense"
- it sounds like you are sitting at home like a Cheshire cat with cream on your lips even though all four of your picks finished in the last five home and all were beaten by 17l or more.
I think your overall analysis is deeply flawed and you got luck on the day. We’ll see about the stamina of Deep Impact progeny in Europe.


More insults.
Insults are a sign that you have little to say.
I did say further up the thread that i was backing a horse at 87s and opposing a 4/5 favourite.
What luck did i get on the day?
Was I lucky that Saxon Warrior did not win?
I said I thought there was little evidence he would stay, and the price was terrible.

My bet on Saxon Warrior was a place lay that he would finish outside the first four.
If anything my analysis was good, but Hazapour led 1f out then faded to 5th letting Saxon Warrior take 4th place, and I didn’t collect.  Is that lucky?

Perhaps Kew Gardens was sent into the lead to counter Knight To Behold, and sacrificed to ensure a good pace for Saxon Warrior, who was "likely to improve for the extra half-mile".
I could not know the Ballydoyle race plans in advance.

I suggested that Saxon Warrior might not stay, as his sire Deep Impact did not stay in the Arc, despite being on drugs, and none of his progeny in GB/IRE have won a 12f group 1 (or any decent 12f race).
Two Deep Impact horses finished in the last two places in a 14f race at Royal Ascot in 2017, and his progeny winners almost all won very low grade 3yo old maiden races, some taking from 6 to 10 attempts to win a maiden.

World records in Japan at a distance no one else runs might impress you.
When I looked at the two long distance races won by Deep Impact I found that in one the first three home were sired by Sunday Silence, in the other race the first four were sired by Sunday Silence.
Just like the Japanese derby won by a son of Deep Impact in the last few days: 3 x Deep Impact; 4 x Heart's Cry ran in the race.


Madhu
We’ll see about the stamina of Deep Impact progeny in Europe.

Nothing so far.  They need to use staying mares.
By:
kincsem
When: 04 Jun 18 03:52
Madhu
Here you managed to somehow cut and paste an incomplete in running comment: the full one was- Raced in mid-division, pushed along over 3f out, soon dropped to rear and eased under 2f out, saddle slipped. His saddle slipped! And as Sandown pointed out, he was 25lbs inferior on ratings anyway.


Here I am not sure. 
Was the “saddle slipped” comment added later to the comments in running? 
It may have been reported by connections and added later

Let us see how this horse does in his next race.
Guess what?
Conclusion  by Deep Impact is still a maiden after five races.
He is entered in a Gowran Park maiden race today and let us hope there are no saddle problem.
I though Aidan O’Brien was very careful when saddling his runners.

........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

I missed the "saddle slipped" which is now in the racing Post comments in running.
My guess is the "saddle slipped" was added later.

Luckily I have The Irish Field to hand, Saturday, June 2, 2018
"mid-division, ridden over 3f out, eased from 2f out" ...................... and nothing else, no comment about a saddle prioblem.
You would have to guess in a 10f race if the horse was "ridden 3f out" then everything was alright.

You can look at the video on Youtube.  The best images are the head-on pictures from 02:40 onwards.
The stirrups are level, the jockey is cantering, and to me everything looks ok, except that the fields has gone away.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L748Bua4B-8
By:
unclepuncle
When: 04 Jun 18 08:11
I completely agree with your analysis about Deep Impact and it may reap good opportunities for a while yet,  but to have gone to all that trouble and effort, including all your posts on here, and then end up actually losing money on Saxon Warrior suggests you need some advice on betting strategy.Wink
By:
cause and effect
When: 04 Jun 18 08:34
A passionate but fascinating debate on Deep Impact lads. thank you to all
By:
Desmond Orchard
When: 04 Jun 18 14:11
Yep quality discussion lads and one that will run and run no doubt.
I don’t think an inability to last home cost SW the race, more that they are young horses improving at different rates and that there wasn’t a lot between him, Masar and Roaring Lion in the Guineas to explain the large price differential - although with a gun to my head I would’ve conceded he was the likeliest winner. The media’s need to hype every prospective champion fed into this also.
Anyway the discussion is much better than some tool aftertiming a lay of Saxon Warrior, when every post prior was talking up his chances, including a pronouncement that he would win by a furlong! At least now we don’t have to hear any more about his 25/1 triple crown imaginary bet that he ‘remembered’ after the horse had won the guineas.
Like everyone on here, no objection to well reasoned and thought out discussion, utter bull5h1t, does start to grate, however.
By:
Figgis
When: 04 Jun 18 14:33
Desmond, well said Laugh
By:
1st time poster
When: 04 Jun 18 15:43
suppose you could argue why arnt there huge queues outside bookmakers to avail themselves of 7 to 4 against 4 to 5 saxon for the irish derby,if everyone believes the winner won on merit,2nd doesn't stay etc,etc, if saxon wasn't an odds on chance on sat how can he still be an odds on shoite, seems people either don't believe what they saw or think he should have been well odds on on saturday
By:
FELTFAIR
When: 04 Jun 18 15:44
LaughLaugh
By:
FELTFAIR
When: 04 Jun 18 15:45
Desmond.
By:
cause and effect
When: 04 Jun 18 16:13
Careful DO, could get suspended, I believeExcitedWink
By:
kincsem
When: 04 Jun 18 16:39
I'm just back in from hours of digging the garden, big mistake on a day like this, lost a kilo despite drinking 2 litres of water.
Conclusion (by Deep Impact) did the business at Gowran Park, 2nd as the 8/11 fav..  Six races and yet to win a maiden.
When a "saddle slipped" comment is added by a newspaper to a race report I ask myself who owns the horse, who owns the newspaper. Cool
Join the dots.

In case anyone thinks I am aftertiming my loss, the place lay of Saxon Warrior to be in the first four in the Derby please go to
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057869612&page=7 ... post #100 (my username is Diomed).


A very strange coincidence was when I was at The Curragh on 2000 Guineas day I was chatting to a man who said he had a horse, Texas Radio, running at Gowran (he didn't tip it).  It won today at 13/2.
By:
kincsem
When: 04 Jun 18 16:46
I backed Peru to win the World Cup at €120 at 370s. ... will win in a hack canter.
For some reason I had €10 on Japan at 488.  It must be their staying qualities that attracted me. Laugh
By:
Figgis
When: 04 Jun 18 16:51
I have SW's Derby run a good 15lbs behind his Guineas win. The chances are he won't have to fully recover his Guineas form to win at the Curragh,but that is still a big dip in form to overcome in a short space of time. Thinking back to O'Brien's previous Guineas winners that lost form afterwards they usually never recovered. George Washington eventually did but it was much later in the season. If SW is still odds on nearer the time I'm pretty sure I'll be laying him. I wouldn't fancy backing Masar at that price to follow up as I'd prefer to have a few others running for me too. I know I could lay SW now but don't want to risk the race cutting up badly and becoming a Coolmore benefit.
By:
impossible123
When: 04 Jun 18 16:53
'kincsem', with your wealth of knowledge on horse breeding and the rest - I'm not that way inclined by the way (I'm extremely clinical eg either a horse wins or not) - I'd not worry about the stick you are getting from some quarters, if I were you, as I'm sure others would appreciate your posts.

As for after-timing it only kids the perpetrator and no one else usually someone with a big ego but lacking security and/or attention.
By:
unclepuncle
When: 04 Jun 18 17:29
impossible123
04 Jun 18 16:53

As for after-timing it only kids the perpetrator and no one else usually someone with a big ego but lacking security and/or attention.


Unbelievable.Crazy
By:
Andrew in Sweden
When: 04 Jun 18 17:43
As for after-timing it only kids the perpetrator and no one else usually someone with a big ego but lacking security and/or attention.

I agree with unclepuncle Wink
By:
unclepuncle
When: 04 Jun 18 19:06
Andrew in Sweden 04 Jun 18 17:43

I agree with unclepuncle


You are clearly a fine judge.Cool
By:
Andrew in Sweden
When: 04 Jun 18 19:08
Uncle,

Maybe in some aspects of this thread at least Wink
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