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Horse Antepost
Epsom Derby 2017
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I wonder if grumpy Stoutey might have been a bit hasty when ruling Crystal Ocean out of the Derby so quickly ? Could there be a change of mind if alls well tomorrow morning and Sir Evelyns been on the phone wondering if a once in a lifetime moment at Epsom might have been squandered ...
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So Gosden withdrew needlessly. Excuse me? Confused?
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But well done to you brigust, you put up about the horse and stated your bets early, unlike these aftertiming prices that pop up. As you say you have a live one, at least in the market, so nice one
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So Gosden withdrew needlessly
He withdrew supposedly because of the ground, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that ground. |
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Good time for the Listed race too. Seems like nobody walked the round course before describing the ground/withdrawing their horses. The going has been changed from soft to good to soft on both courses but that still doesn't go far enough. I think the clerk needs to start looking at the times too
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I'm just in the door and didn't see the racing.
The Dante time looks fast for soft ground, and the other times on the card are all over the place. Lots of horses withdrawn because of the ground. From the times I can't figure if they were taken out due to soft ground or firm ground.  Perhaps the races were hand timed by Stevie Wonder. |
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It's alright saying the times were wrong but there were loads of non runners, could those trainers all be wrong? At least three of the winners the trainers thought their horses benefited from the ground, could they be wrong? Benbatl apparently benefited from the underfoot conditions. And I am sure there will be a lot who thought their horses didn't handle conditions.
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It's alright saying the times were wrong but there were loads of non runners, could those trainers all be wrong?
Yes, most of them just go by the description. At least three of the winners the trainers thought their horses benefited from the ground, could they be wrong? Winning connections will usually be happy with the ground. Benbatl apparently benefited from the underfoot conditions Says who? Benbatl ran well last time on good to firm, I don't see how today's run could be rated much better. And I am sure there will be a lot who thought their horses didn't handle conditions Beaten connections usually scapegoat the ground. |
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Any seasoned punter, even one with little interest in times, could see from experience that the finishing distances on the round course have no correlation to races run on soft ground.
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That is just a list of reasons why timing is not for me. And I am a seasoned punter. And as a seasoned punter I know not to follow ground descriptions religiously. I also know that York is a flat, free draining course and is one of the reasons I wasn't sure about Cracksman running.
As someone who doesn't appear to read what connections say I won't bother relaying to you what Sin Bin said about Benbatl and if you think you have an edge over everyone else about the going description and the times they ran I am sure you will have every opportunity to take advantage of those of us who are not in the least interested in race times, in the future. |
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Looking at the time for Hambleton it was < 1s outside the course record and coincidentally that was recorded on good ground. As Figgis rightly says although they have re-measured none have been moved.
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* The starts have not been moved.
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And as a seasoned punter I know not to follow ground descriptions religiously
In that case, and as you take no notice of times, how do you reach a conclusion on the state of the ground? |
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I can't see how withdrawing Cracksman is a positive. I'm convinced the horse needed another race before the Derby. It's a big step up from his previous effort, Permian having improved plenty since, and Cracksman now lacking the experience of his rivals. Not many can win the Derby after two starts - it can be done, of course, but it's asking a lot, although this wouldn't appear to be a strong year. The Dante has been 16 days before Epsom often enough. Unfathomable decision in view of the race times. I think not running has done his chances much more harm than good.
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Aidan O’Brien has given his strongest indication yet that 2,000 Guineas winner Churchill will stick to a mile for the time being rather than step up in trip to tackle the Investec Derby on June 3.
O’Brien’s comments came after stablemate Exemplar had finished eighth in the Dante Stakes at York on Thursday, the last key trial before the Classic in 16 days' time. O'Brien has Derrinstown Stud Derby Trial principals, Douglas Macarthur, Yucatan and Capri, Chester Vase 1-2-3 Venice Beach, Wings Of Eagles and The Anvil, plus Dee Stakes winner Cliffs Of Moher, in the mix for the Derby, in addition to the exceptional Churchill. "The lads will decide," said O'Brien of his possible Epsom team. "We've got the seven horses from the trials – the three from Leopardstown, the three from the Chester Vase and Cliffs Of Moher. "The eighth would be Churchill, but there's a big chance the lads will keep him at a mile. He has a lot of speed and is very comfortable at a mile. He relaxes so well you'd think he would have no problem getting a mile and a quarter, but you never know about a mile and a half." While Churchill still heads some Derby markets, stablemate and Dee Stakes winner Cliffs Of Moher is a shorter price elsewhere and O’Brien did nothing to dishearten his supporters. He added: "It's going to be very interesting, especially if the lads decide to keep Churchill at a mile. The way I saw it, the three Leopardstown horses progressed from their first run to their second. The three Chester Vase horses were horses we always thought would stay very well. "Going into Chester, Cliffs Of Moher was probably the rawest of ours. He was just ready to start and we felt if he did win we'd be very happy. Although he was very green that day he went to the line really well and probably learned a lot. "Ryan [Moore] felt there could be a lot of improvement to come after Chester. He's started working again and everything looks lovely. I don't think there's any doubt there's great room for improvement with him." |
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Yayyyyy :D
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I tell you - THE DERBY - TESIO, VINCENT, THAT WOODEN STICK !!!! LOL
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On a different note: time will tell whether JG got it right, and it's close to call, but I tend to think he got it wrong as it was no slog, and now Permian goes there with a great chance having built on from Epsom to Newmarket and now again,
But Cracksman does have the potential, no question. |
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ffs
You reveal your one-upmanship hastily with three convoluted postings and a weigh anchor grin, yet I will repeat, the whole basis of my rebuttal is this tripe you uttered- “The reality is the St James is worth more than the Derby.”- it had nothing to do with Churchill's participation as it goes. Leave that sausage on your forehead and debate your tripe. |
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statistically only chestnut Galileos can win the Derby - I think all of Ballydoyle's seven are bay or grey
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Madhu - None so deaf as those that will not listen.
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ffs
I've nothing to say to you. Just go away. It gives me no pleasure except in the bank, the only place that matters. You have nothing to say in this instance because you cannot give a sound basis to the tripe you spieled. You have revealed that one-upmanship is all you are after with your convoluted postings taking up the limelight of a thread page. |
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In that case, and as you take no notice of times, how do you reach a conclusion on the state of the ground?
As I always have. The weather, the way the races are run, the reports and the results. I can honestly say I have never looked at the times. Why would I use something that I believe is so flawed? |
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And that statement from AOB just proves the contempt he holds the racegoers and punters in.
"The eighth would be Churchill, but there's a big chance the lads will keep him at a mile. He has a lot of speed and is very comfortable at a mile. He relaxes so well you'd think he would have no problem getting a mile and a quarter, but you never know about a mile and a half." That was a statement he should have made days ago because, as I was reminded today his York runner never had a chance so waiting all this time is clearly what they, Coolmore, are all about. |
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ffs
I will repeat, the whole basis of my rebuttal is this tripe you uttered- “The reality is the St James is worth more than the Derby.”- it had nothing to do with Churchill's participation as it goes. |
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ffs
As The Headmaster originally asked you “show me the horse that won the SJP and only the SJP that has commanded a fee”: you cannot answer because your statement is flawed. |
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tripe - nice. expand your vocabulary much ?
I've no interest in having any debate with you. Did you back up your counter with my offer to lay Churchill in the 2000 ? |
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I have never looked at the times. Why would I use something that I believe is so flawed
As you have never looked at them you couldn't really have any understanding of how they're used so couldn't really say if they're flawed on not. So what was your assessment of the ground, using the weather, the way the races were run, the reports and the results? |
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Coolmore are well within their rights to wait and see how all their runners shape up before making categoric announcements. They have so many contenders it would be a bit foolish to do otherwise. Punters can form their own conclusions and try to pre-empt the market or sit and wait it out. If some people want to be spoon fed and can't read the signals they're in the wrong game, with Coolmore being such a dominant force.
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ffs
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. Num nut. |
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ffs
Angry? I do not get angry, three Oms and it is gone mate but like I say talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. Num nut. |
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ffs
And you're not doing yourself any favours in that regard :D First off you go from wanting people to think that you are inside of Irish horse racing to substantiate your tripe- Go ask Jim Bolger - which Sire did AO'B recommend to him - I know because I heard him tell the whole story There may be another reason - without getting too specific, one of 'the lads' might not be in communication regularly with the others for personal reasons I don't even know what point you're trying to make !? except pick a fight and call names !?!? ... AO'B tried to recommend HC to JB, It's true - why don't you believe that, or what does it matter to you if you don't .. ? What difference does it make ... except it gives you, the keyboard warrior, something to shout about. You then textese your one-upmanship through “Yayyyyy :D” and “It gives me no pleasure except in the bank, the only place that matters.” to the news that Churchill might stay at a mile without any consideration to those who may have backed him for the Derby. Tap that tubular thing coming out of your forehead as “you're not doing yourself any favours in that regard :D,” Num nut. I will repeat, the whole basis of my rebuttal is this tripe you uttered- “The reality is the St James is worth more than the Derby.”- it had nothing to do with Churchill's participation as it goes and as The Headmaster originally asked you “show me the horse that won the SJP and only the SJP that has commanded a fee”: you cannot answer because your statement is flawed. |
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Coolmore are well within their rights to treat the system that feeds them with the utter contempt do. Just as I am well within my rights to think of them as I do. Some people understand when they are being treated with contempt others are quite happy to be the victims. I am not and I will have no hesitation in saying so.
As you have never looked at them you couldn't really have any understanding of how they're used so couldn't really say if they're flawed on not. It's called experience. It is a bit like walking. Some need crutches to support them while others have confidence in themselves, trust in their own ability and rely on their experience. |
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Looks like my Churchill antepost bets are almost buried but those on CoM have emerged more valuable and Cracksman too at 10/1 (just today). At this rate I'd could end up with six runners come Derby Day, if Churchill is resurrected.
Oh well, Churchill's participation in the SJP looks a near certainty if AOB's statements are proven correct. |
