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**HENNESSY GOLD CUP**
**HENNESSY GOLD CUP**
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Replies: 275
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He beat 174 rated Neptune Collonges by 22 lengths off level weight at Cheltenham.
He beat Hennessy winner Madison Du Burlais by 24 lengths at Haydock and the same horse by 36 lengths at Kempton last year. Don't tell me he couldn't beat those same horses giving them 20lbs+ on those occasions. He may not be able to give Denners weight and a beating at Newbury. But Denman is no ordinary horse himself. As for having so few horses in the handicap being a shambles. I don't think it was back when Arkle did it and it sure as hell ain't Kauto's fault he's rated 190 and he, like an pther horse is entitled to go for whatever race connections want. |
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If it was any other year I would love to see both Kauto and Denman run, no matter that no one else would be in the handicap
 There is no doubt though that it is a race that I would love to see. IMO neither horse is likely to run up to their handicap rating (Kauto stays the distance all right, but I think he is a few lbs better at 3m and Denman I suspect is slightly past his best). I think that they would both be 5lbs short of their marks on good to soft. It would be some feat to get Neptune Collonges back for this, but I could see Taranis running to his mark, which would put him bang in with a chance. Of the others the one of most interest would be Diamond Harry, who with 8lbs or so of improvement over his current rating would be right in the mix too. Fascinating. |
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Agree with most of that FCH, I don't think Kauto or Denman are 190 or 182 horses respectively and there are a few horses like Pandorama who are going to be quite a bit better than their mark imo.
Fascinating race, could be best to just watch it and enjoy the spectacle. |
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i didnt say anything about madison du berlais or neptune collonges did i. hes won only two out of 5 grade twos which is poor for his own high standard and if he and denman go for it theres not a hope kauto will come out on top
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There's no doubting that Denman will set the standard whether Kauto runs or not. The other one I like tho is Burton Port, who really caught the eye when finishing runner-up in the RSA before bolting up at Aintree. Could do what Trabolgan did and win this race for the same connections!
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I wouldn't fancy Burton Port at these weights when you see what Diamond Harry did to him at Haydock over fixed brush hurdles on much less favourable terms.
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hes won only two out of 5 grade twos which is poor for his own high standard
Oh cop on with the pointless stats. 3 of those grade 2's were fto (ie the definition of a prep race) Of those three defeats one was his first in open company and first race back from injury AND over 2m back in 2005. Utterly utterly pointless your "stat". I plain hate people quoting rubbish like that. You lose your credibility instantly. Another was a 1 length defeat by a true 2m4f Aintree specialist in Monets Garden giving him a stone. The last was 3 weeks after the 2008 Gold Cup, where Kauto was drawing clear before blundering the 2nd last and being caught on the line by Our Vic. |
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booster Joined: 17 Mar 03
Replies: 58 03 Nov 10 21:26 I wouldn't fancy Burton Port at these weights when you see what Diamond Harry did to him at Haydock over fixed brush hurdles on much less favourable terms. Think Burton Port is a much better horse than he was then. |
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You could argue that but you could also say that he got better as the season progressed but Diamond Harry will be razor sharp first time out.
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so were these not defeats outside of grade one company? all i said was that he wasnt going to beat denman givin him weight and that i thought it would be a shambles having so few horses in the handicap from a neutral perspective. it doesnt matter that he blundered at the last and got pipped at the post or that they were considered a prep race. it doesnt matter whether or not his reasons for defeat are justified or not, losses are losses. hes often blundered at the last in g1 company and won with loads in hand. stats arent pointless
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rev, I wouldn't be so confident about Denman coming out on top at the weights. Denman has won one race since March 2008, I personally think he has deteriorated more than Kauto. He was beaten IMO last time at Newbury when he unseated and I don't think he would beat Kauto in a battle if thats what it came down to.
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i wouldnt be so sure that either denners or kauto has deteriorated much if at all. the fact that ruby said denners feels best for 3 yrs is enuf for me really. i wouldnt consider a fall in the gold cup to be a sign of a regressive horse either. maybe im wrong but id consider denners as better at the weights getting 8lbs
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Yeah I read that, and who knows if its true maybe he is back to 2008 form. I just have my doubts, I don't think, last years Hennessy aside, he has come close to being the horse he was in 07/08. It would be interesting to see who Ruby picks if indeed he really does think Denman is as good as three years ago.
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good point yeah. to be perfectly honest i dont see kauto running. he could pick up another g1 easy enough and the hennessy would by no means be easy
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Basically none of Kauto's grade 2 chases were anything other than preps for main targets or, in the case of the Aintree Bowl, an afterthought to win the order of merit.
Basically the Hennessy is always going to be a main target for all horses running there and should be compared to Kauto's G1 targets rather than his preps. |
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do k hes goin to run?
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I think if he wins easy/well on Saturday he'll run. If he doesn't then I guess it depends whether he's had a hard race or not, they may not make a decision until the week before
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No idea, if he has a simple race and win on Saturday and comes out of it well I'm sure Clive is serious about running him. Nicholls likes the idea as it'll help Denman win a 3rd Hennessy and make history, while Kauto would probably be 2nd fav and break his ratings highs of 191 TF and 193 OR if he won. So two chances of history either way.
Plus Kauto can still go for the King George with only a weeks less rest than last year. All sits well with Nicholls I'd say. |
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i honestly think they wont. i think that the race could do him more harm than good. i know if i were clive smith i wouldnt but then again im not! id just love to see the likes of diamond harry, wierd al and burton port have a good crack at it but theres no doubt that connections are by no means concerned by this
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I can't imagine the race could do any harm at all to Kauto unless he fell.
He has been through war after war in his previous 6 chase seasons and has always come back better than before. There is no reason to believe a run under pretty much the same weight he always carries would have any detrimental effect on him. At worst it may take a bit of an edge off him for Kempton, but he had some battle in the mud last year at Haydock and it certanly had no negative effect on his Kempton performance. |
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i junk that grade ones would be better for him as they are more or less easy for him and a foregone conclusion if hes on top form and doesnt fall. i dont think hed have the hennessy so easy
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He wont have the hennessy as easy, no. But given how easily he has demolished good horses in Grade 1's there is no reason he can't win the Hennessy. Denman will certainly be favourite though. 11-4 is a lovely weight.
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yeah it will be fun seeing how it all pans out thats for sure
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Anybody who doesn't want to see a horse attempt to win a handicap off a rating as high as this has a bit of an issue imo, it's a truly fascinating scenario. How often in this day and age do we see our top rated horses giving lumps all round in handicaps? Denman last year off 174 was the biggest I can see for a few years, and this would be something else.
The best handicap event for Kauto Star to run in would be the Racing Post Chase, but that's so close to Cheltenham that it's not suitable. I know this race is quite close to Kempton, and it could scupper his chances there, but on the face of it he's already won that race 4 times and has nothing more to prove at 3 miles around Kempton. After that he's nigh on 3 months to recover and prepare for his Gold Cup run, and potentially his last ever race. If only he could re-regain the Gold Cup!  Kauto Star has his knockers, like any other horse seems to. Some people seem to think that giving lumps away in handicaps seems to be the true way of proving a horses champion status. If that's the case then so be it. Bring it on |
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Some people seem to think that giving lumps away in handicaps seems to be the true way of proving a horses champion status. If that's the case then so be it.
Then they are wrong imo. Winning Gold Cups,Tingle Creeks,and King Georges proves a horses is a champion. FFT, He has nothiong to prove to anyone.We all know he can carry big weights,hes been doing it all his racing life.Hes a Group1 horse who imo should not nor needs to run in Handicaps. |
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Lighten up Bud.
On one hand you say KS has nothing to prove and on the other hand you say if he gives Denman weight and a beating in the Hennessy then Denman can't be right. Make your mind up. |
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Entirely agree budd, hence me opening that line with "some people". I know that all his grade 1s are a mark of a champion. It's just that every horse that comes along seems to be knocked by a few because they didn't do it in handicaps because Arkle, the greatest NH horse of all time, did.
I don't think the race is right for him at all, but regardless of my opinion, it would be a truly fascinating race that we should all really be getting excited about if he were to run in it |
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I'll have butterflies in my stomach like before the 2009 Gold cup if he and Denman turn up.
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Brigust,i fail to see your point.
He has nothing to prove as far as i am concerned.His record speaks for itself. And as Kauto and Denman cannot be seperated over 3m2f on level weights(1-1)then i can only conclude that if Kauto were to beat Denman giving weight,their can only be 1 reason,or 2 if you think Kauto has improved!! |
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Me to CV. My local track Newbury.
But all this talk about money grabbing, nothing to prove, won't beat Denman if he's right etc. etc. I think racehorses should race and this would be a spectacular race. No matter what happens some will criticise but you just can't please everybody. Bring it on and then, after the race, the forum will be buzzing with those who thought he shouldn't have run and those who thought he should. Everybody who loves racing should be behind this and whatever happens I doubt any other race will be as good a spectacle this season. |
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just think how great sea the stars would have been if he won an ebor.....they missed a trick with that one[;)]
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Who gives a sh1t about flat horses. One season and retirement can never make you a legend. This is Kauto's SEVENTH chase season. That is why national hunt is always going to be the best.
Kauto did what sea the stars did back in 06/07 when he won six chases, including four grade 1's from 2m to 3m2f+ and the betfair million. |
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i was making the point that kauto doesn't need to be targeted at the race....obviously not very well.
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JOCI Club Joined: 13 Mar 04
Replies: 4929 02 Nov 10 20:11 Looking forward to Glencove Marina this year. Think could challenge the best in Ireland. Won nicely at Thurles today. Options open. Still in Hennessy, but not a confirmed runner. |
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JOCI did you really think he won that well? He was receiing a small amount of weight which means the isn't much between the front 3. I don't think he's the same horse he was before the injury. Before then I thought he could have gone right to the top
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Thought he did it well enough, but he doesn't really look to be a natural jumper, giving some of the fences plenty of air, and not gaining much ground at them like some of the better leapers can. Just looked to tire a little in the closing stages, but I'd have been happy enough as a trainer.
Personally would not run him in the Hennessy, rather give him a few more outings at around Gd 2 level in Ireland, and then aim higher. |
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Massive boost for Weird Al on Saturday.
Cannot wait for this race now. ALL IN! |
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Aye Gunny, Denman, Weird Al backed today after Nicholls comments make Kauto a virtualt n/r. They along with Pando are my 3.
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wide open i think, i dont think ill be backin anythin, gonna be a great race tho!
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Diamond Harry, Williams will have him spot on had good bet at 10,s
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