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steinbeck is a monster i have said that from the start of the season
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for a horse that has won a softish maiden and the weakened into 5th in a very poor renewal of the Dewhurst Steinbeck is clearly being over hyped as some sort of new Pegasus.
Of course he might turn out to be much much better than he has shown so far, but he doesn't half need to. |
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Totally agree regarding the bare form as it is nowhere what you would expect of a fancied horse. However it is no secret that connections think he is better than he has shown, whether this is good enough we will see. I am eagerly awaiting a team ballydoyle racecourse gallop because i am sure that will prove informative ;)
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Steinbeck is over hyped. However so was King of Kings and any number of other Aiden horses that more than lived up to the early reputations.
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Came 4th in the Dewhurst not 5th, was he weakening or was it he had nothing to race against ? The way he looked when he past the post looked like there was plenty more to come.
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Well he was passed by 3 others near then end, maybe he just got a bit tired. He hadn't run for ages and may well have needed the race. Its also quite possible he wasn't well suited to making the running. His reputation was sky high before he ever even raced so there's every chance he'll go on and be a top miler. Horses trained by APOB tend, when highly rated, to be top performers. However its just a bit early to assume he is a champion; he has much yet to prove.
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Well well then, come May im going to have a great big laugh when the Monster is slain by St Nicholas!
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Who is claiming he is a champion already ? As Primo Donna states it is going to by interesting come May. Lets see who many runners are in the Guineas as in large fields the draw seems to have some effect.
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I'm warming to Canford Cliffs, he has more speed than St Nick but will it last for 1 mile?
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No chance a pure Richard Hannon 2y old,GR winner yes, but only over shorter trips imo.
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I was surprised Attraction stayed the Guineas trip. This one is a less obvious sprinter so it can happen.
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Yes it can,but i dont think it will with him.R.Hannon is a great trainer,and can get a horse to win the GNS,but this colt CC,looks so typical of his sort who are fast early with some class but dont really train on,can you really see a son of Tagula winning the 2000GNS,to date he has nothing of that class.
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CC is the best to date by that stallion, Attraction was all out to win the Guineas, Prima Donna dont fillies stay better than colts ? Or is it there is less competition in the fillies races ?
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Push, I wouldn't say that fillies stay better than colts but their form can be more erratic, so a filly that has run a few times like a non-stayer can 'suddenly' put up a good performance over a longer trip. In general I would think that the competion is less, cetainly in fillies classics compared to colts. an owner of a good filly has little to lose by running in a Gns or Oaks, but always has the chance that she will be placed (esp taking into account the erractic form mentioned above) and this will massively affect her broodmare value. A colts owner meanwhile does not want to get his good horse beaten too many times, and even a classic place will not nessecarily make a huge impact on his future stud value.
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Good answer Prima Donna , is your alias Tony Morris ?
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Push, I should be so lucky!
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Kylie Minogue?
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Lillie Langtry unlikely to make Guineas ... tell me again who is the straightest with their books ;)
Aidan O'Brien has warned Lillie Langtry is highly unlikely to be in the line-up for the Stan James 1000 Guineas at Newmarket. The filly suffered a fractured knee at the Breeders' Cup in Santa Anita and while she will make it back to the racecourse, it probably won't be in time for the first fillies' Classic. "We're hoping she's going to be back but I'm not sure she's going to be back in time for the Guineas," O'Brien told At The Races. "We're hoping to have her back mid-season or the second-half of the season. She's done well and is in light exercise and it's so far so good but I wouldn't be sure she'd be back for the Guineas." jamesp 09 Jan 17:24 I get the impression that they rate St Nicholas Abbey even more highly than Steinbeck, and I'll be surprised if they don't run SNA in a Guineas (English or French), as he has loads of pace and a terrific turn of foot. jamesp 09 Jan 17:26 As for Laddies, I suspect that the reason they're not quoting SNA for the Guineas (except on request) is simply because they don't want to lay him - if they wanted to 'get' him they'd be quoting him in their list. kirk st. moritz 09 Jan 17:32 Dont agree with you there think they are the most honest firm with regards to including runners and not including who they perceive to be non runners. zilzal1 09 Jan 17:35 Wonder why someone just doesnt e mail Laddies to ask them? Ernie & Bert 09 Jan 17:39 Ladbrokes are in the know, always watch their moves. Incidentally Cape Blanco will figure at the head of the market come May. kirk st. moritz 09 Jan 17:45 Laddies are the ONLY firm other than Ch@ndlers to not include another Ballydoyle horse in a Classic, Lillie Langtry in the 1000 Guineas. Now where following the 'trying to get a non runner logic' does this fit in especially where Special Duty looks a good thing? St Nick backers need to be worried imo. kirk st. moritz 09 Jan 17:47 Are all the other firms as honest over Lillie Langtry as Laddies and Ch@ndlers? |
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What a load of nonsense. Everyone has known for ages that Lillie Langtry sustained a knee injury at the Breeders Cup. It was widely reported at the time, e.g. in the Racing Post on 7 November:
"LILLIE LANGTRY, who proved a major disappointment when a well beaten favourite in the Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies Turf, fractured a knee during the race. Part-owner John Magnier said: "She has a small fracture in her knee. It was nobody's fault and everybody here at Santa Anita dealt with it efficiently. It's not a career-threatening injury. She will have a pin inserted in the knee on Sunday and then she will follow on home in ten days time." It doesn't mean that the bookmaking firm in question has amazing insight into what's going on at Ballydoyle. They were merely doing the right thing by removing her from their 1000 Guineas list. You are inferring, from the fact that the same firm are not quoting SNA for the 2000 Guineas, that they have inside knowledge about specific plans for this horse. Whereas the truth is that no such plans have been made at this very early stage of the year. After the Racing Post Trophy they hinted strongly that the Guineas would be under consideration - a major shift in thinking, as after the Beresford Stakes they had been talking about the Derinnstown Stud Derby Trial. The RPT proved to Aidan that the horse had more than enough class, speed and acceleration to win the Guineas. |
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So why were Laddies the only firm not wanting to get Lillie Langtry then? They could have 'got her' as you put it.
jamesp 09 Jan 17:26 As for Laddies, I suspect that the reason they're not quoting SNA for the Guineas (except on request) is simply because they don't want to lay him - if they wanted to 'get' him they'd be quoting him in their list. |
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Not even Ladbrokes would be brazen enough to quote Lillie Langtry when they knew she was carrying a serious injury! There's the world of difference between trying to 'get' (i.e. lay) a horse that they have taken a view about, on the one hand, and dishonestly seeking to lay a horse that's doubtful for an event due to injury. Other firms that were quoting LL for the 1000 were not playing fair with the betting public. Ladbrokes, to their credit, removed her from their list as soon as the news of her injury filtered through in November.
The situation with SNA is completely different and one can only speculate on the reasons why one major firm is not quoting him for the 2000. The firm in question clearly does not want to take a penny for the horse, since they are quoting him at only 2/1 (on request). Since all options are open for all Aidan's best horses, headed by SNA, Steinbeck et al, there is no good reason for not quoting SNA for the Guineas. The firm in question has simply taken the view, one supposes, that SNA will bypass the Guineas, but why not openly lay the horse? If they don't think he's a Guineas horse, why not go biggest price - there would be nothing wrong with that (unless, of course, they knew that he was a doubtful runner, which would imply that they have special inside information which Aidan does not even share with the public). |
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I already explained to you with examples (eg Voy Por Ustedes the Ryanair they are trying to get knowing he will run but dont fancy him). This is different they genuinely dont think he will run ... they may be right they may be wrong but there is no doubt they are the shrewdest with this stable, Lillie Langtry only the latest example.
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I'm sorry, I'm not trying to pick an argument, but how can you claim that they were 'shrewd' with regard to Lillie Langtry?!! She was injured and everyone knew she was injured. That's not shrewdness, that's just commonsense.
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jamesp ... not injured enough to be out for the season .. she is coming back just not in time for the Guineas and it would appear one bookie had that sussed the others didnt (just my opinion). We can agree to disagree on this.
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I think Laddies are probably wrong as I have had to read APOB for many years now and can see the signs. When he emphasises the others you can usually see he is bringing one through quietly. He did it with George Washington ... highlighting Ivan Denisovic and others when in reality they were light years away from GW and he must have known it.
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Saying that I do believe Steinbeck will be top class over a mile ... tons of speed.
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O'BRIEN BACKS DEWHURST FORM
Aidan O'Brien feels the form of the Dewhurst Stakes has been "underrated". The trainer saddled the first two home as 33-1 chance Beethoven led home 20-1 shot Fencing Master, with better-fancied Ballydoyle runner Steinbeck a close-up fourth on his first run since May and just his second in total. Plenty of critics were keen to crab the form, but O'Brien was adamant at the time it was a good race, and is sticking with that viewpoint, not least after the efforts of Beethoven in the Breeders' Cup Juvenile, where he was almost brought down before finishing to great effect. O'Brien told At The Races: "We felt it was a very good Dewhurst, a strong and evenly-run race. They all got a clear run if they were good enough. "We think the first two are very underrated and it was the first time Beethoven got a real strong run race. "The second we were very happy with and it was the first run back in a long time for Steinbeck. Johnny (Murtagh) dropped him out and he got into a good rhythm. He was cruising in the last half-furlong but maybe could have done with a lead, and Colm (O'Donoghue on Fencing Master) and Ryan (Moore on Beethoven) just challenged a bit wider. "The Juvenile was an incredible run by Beethoven, he nearly got brought down on the first bend and came home like a train. You would imagine if you look back at it that what happened cost him the race. "It showed the Dewhurst was no fluke and he came out of America very well. "We've always thought Steinbeck was very good and classy and he is. He was only back in six weeks before the Dewhurst. He's a horse we are looking forward to, he could be anything with normal progression. "Beethoven is very progressive, very precocious and very sound. He got better with every run and we threw everything at him. "I suppose the exciting thing about Beethoven was his run in the Juvenile, to produce what he did. He's a very solid horse." |
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"The second we were very happy with and it was the first run back in a long time for Steinbeck. Johnny (Murtagh) dropped him out and he got into a good rhythm. He was cruising in the last half-furlong but maybe could have done with a lead, and Colm (O'Donoghue on Fencing Master) and Ryan (Moore on Beethoven) just challenged a bit wider.
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We've always thought Steinbeck was very good and classy and he is. He was only back in six weeks before the Dewhurst. He's a horse we are looking forward to, he could be anything with normal progression
We were all wondering when he was going to reappear last year. Why didn't O'Brien tell us he was out of training for most of high summer!! |
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I knew he was on the easy list, thought it was pretty common knowledge?
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Kirk,Steinbeck.Got him out and into a good rhythm,it was a poor Dewhurst yet he was not good enough to win this, so how on earth do you think he will win the 2000.
you really are setting yourself up for a big fall come GNS day.Why do you think he did not run between May till Oct............?Answer because he is very FRAGILE! |
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APOB may know a little more than you do on that ;)
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Kirk,Im sure he does!But Steinbeck IS fragile and FYI I know someone at Ballydoyle I DO know what that colt is like,some on here take all the spoon fed rubbish about the Monster,I DONT think he will win the GNS I think he may not even run!I bet S.Heffernan will ride him..............if he stays sound enough to run that is .
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As I say there have been a lot of people who know someone on here. At the end of the day they are all susceptable to injury and his Dewhurst run only the 2nd run of his life after only 6 weeks back in training says a lot about his ability imo.
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..of course if SNA runs and this isnt decided until the end of March after APOB has compared them all it will probably be MUrtagh up but that is only if he runs.
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Kirk,I know that they are very very happy with SNA and as the great man himself said "all options open to him" I think you can guess what he means!
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Every single horse O'Brien has is a 'lovely type', 'with lots of scope', 'plenty of speed', 'but stamina as well', blah, blah, blah.
It's alll Coolmore bloodstock bul**hit so they can quote Aidan's comments in their annual studbook and make it look as if the horse was always ther apple of the trainers eye. All I would take from his comments is that he has no idea which of the 3 Dewhurst runner i s best - and as we all know about blanket finishes - they can't all be top class. |
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They werent all ready in the Dewhurst.
Nobody knows whether SNA runs in the Guineas until he is declared on target. If Steinbeck shows more pace in a couple of months time he may be the one, if SNA does he may be. Whichever way you look at it, all being well with them, Steinbeck will run in the Guineas and SNA may not for your 3/1. |
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Uncle,You are spot on.Remember the birds all singing in the trees last year all about Steinbeck,remember that Kirk do you!
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Love these Coolmore hype dismissals, apparently Rip was all hype, lol.
Ironic that those of us who like him actually point to his racecourse performances allied to his problems as a two year old as the reason for him being a big player in the race. I can't see how anyone can't see how well he ran in the Dewhurst and doesn't understand that it was basically a rush job to get him there to give him a course sighter. I wasn't aware of Beethoven's trouble in running in the BC Juvenile but those bullish comments from O'Brien show he does rate him (let's face it he's not going to be a big money stallion for them so no need not to tell it like it is) particularly the comment about a fast pace being a necessity for him. I think Steinbeck has a terrific amount of scope and I know he is capable of better than his excellent performance in the Dewhurst this year. |