Immediately after the race -

Ed Dunlop "...sure my dad will be pleased .. looks like he wants further" - I have it on video.

So 1 mile is deemed too short for him how the heck do you work out he would have won the Dewhurst. I am not fooled by long essays by the way they dont pick winners.

I just think you're wrong. Elusive Pimpernel would have gone close in the Dewhurst on good to firm ground. On good to soft ground I'm reasonably confident that he would have won it. York is a slightly quicker track than the Rowley Mile (the standard time at York is 0.4s faster than Newmarket over 7f), but even allowing for that, Elusive Pimpernel ran 7f in 1:22.45, while Beethoven ran 7f in 1:23.49. Elusive Pimpernel is not as slow as you like to think.

You may well be right about EP not going for the Guineas. There wouldn't be much point in tackling St Nicholas Abbey again. I'm not convinced that EP does necessarily want much further than a mile, however, regardless of what Ed Dunlop said. John Dunlop was thrilled with the horse's performance at Doncaster and believes he will be a much better horse at three. I suspect he will prove best at 8-10 furlongs (being by Elusive Quality) on good ground, but I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility that he might get further than 10f.

The clock doesn't lie. Elusive Pimpernel won the Acomb in a much faster time than Beethoven achieved in the Dewhurst. In fact, none of the Dewhurst runners had achieved a winning time comparable to Elusive Pimpernel's over 7f, although to be fair to Beethoven he ran OK in defeat in a seemingly fast-run Prix Jean-Luc Lagardere behind Siyouni (over what was probably less than 7f) and Buzzword ran OK in defeat behind Pounced in the fast-run BC Juvenile over a mile. Fencing Master had narrowly won a slowly-run median auction maiden at Dundalk. Xtension's winning time at Goodwood was much slower than Elusive Pimpernel's at York, even allowing for the good ground. The fact remains that Elusive Pimpernal ran faster at York than any of the Dewhurst runners have ever run.

York's 7f is much easier than Newmarket's.

Agree push

Figgis, York is indeed an easier track than Newmarket, but standard time is only 0.4s quicker over 7f. Newmarket is much more like York than, say, Ascot (which is a much stiffer track altogether).

Yes, I agree that winning times depend on a number of factors - the going, the pace, the track, the ability of the participants. But sometimes the most obvious things are the most helpful, and one of the obvious requirements of a Group 1 winner is the ability to run very fast! Elusive Pimpernel's winning time of 1:22.45 was much faster than other recent winners of the Acomb Stakes (albeit on ground that was quicker than most of the other renewals of the race). The next fastest winner Comfy (1:23.09) was very decent - he was beaten 3l in the Dewhurst by a subsequent Guineas winner and at four was beaten 4½l by Falbrav in the Eclipse (RPR 117). Next fastest was Rule Of Law (1:23.42 on good to firm ground), who, as we all know, was 2nd in the Derby and won the St Leger. Hemingway (the 2000 Acomb winner) had looked a very smart prospect but sadly never raced again. Fast Company (the 2007 winner) was ½l 2nd to New Approach in the Dewhurst (RPR 124) and was fancied by Godolphin as a Guineas horse but had training problems and never raced again. The 2005 winner Palace Episode went on to win the Racing Post Trophy. So the Acomb has a mixed record - it tends to throw up a mixture of 7-8f horses and staying types. Last season's race was a better renewal than any of the ones listed by Kirk, and EP's winning performance was the best overall (with the possible exception of Hemingway in 2000).

The facts remain: Elusive Pimpernel won a well above average renewal of the Acomb Stakes in a very fast time, showing a smart turn of foot on ground faster than ideal, and is clearly a very smart horse who should improve further at three. In my opinion he put up an improved performance in the RPT and again showed a good turn of foot at Doncaster. To win the RPT in the way he did, St Nicholas Abbey was an extremely smart animal and, provided he trains on, should be hard to beat wherever he runs this year. Elusive Pimpernel has the ability to win a Group 1 somewhere, but I wouldn't care to nominate a specific race - probably not the Guineas, unless SNA fails to turn up!

prima dona....kirk might have been drawn in by the hype, time will tell. Lets wait to see if the money comes for stienbeck, if it does, i to, will be more than hpoeful of a special run from steinbeck. As for hype, is Canford cliffs not hype. to fancy canford cliffs you must fancy arcano at twice the price on here.

If Arcano is any good the money will come for him nearer the time, as it did with Delegator last year from the same stable.

Essex,Yes i do see SNA as a derby horse but I can also see he has the class to win the GNS,if they do go to Newmarket with him and he wins(it will take a very good one to beat him)then I can see his owners going for the TC,I feel he is a class above the rest.
But if SNA does not run then I still cannot see Steinbeck winning regardless who takes the ride,imo he did run well in the Dewhurst but he would have to improve a hell of a lot,he is a tricky horse as he is never really 100% he was rushed last year and they paid a price in not able to get him out for so long.Some on here have taken to him but for me he may win a GR1 but it wont be in Newmarket on GNS day,that horse will take time to grow if they do rush him to fulfil the hype,I think he will be all but finished for his 3y'old season like his FRAGILE sire.

I am only drawn in by my eyes to be fair .. I read between the lines and also look at things in the cold light of day (it is you getting caught up in the RPT hype) .... Steinbeck and Canford Cliffs are formidable opponents if SNA turns up. That's before Arcano and Awzaan get involved.

Prima Donna 28 Jan 16:33


When you read the posts on this thread one thing stands out a mile is that Kirk has swallowed the Ballydoyle tripe about Steinbeck hook line and sinker,it sounds as if hes trying to convince himself as much as anyone else.Good luck Kirk!




essexguy 28 Jan 17:05


prima dona....kirk might have been drawn in by the hype, time will tell. Lets wait to see if the money comes for stienbeck, if it does, i to, will be more than hpoeful of a special run from steinbeck. As for hype, is Canford cliffs not hype. to fancy canford cliffs you must fancy arcano at twice the price on here.

Think trying to suggest a Guineas winner from a RPT might be classed as hype :)

He may be, but lets get it straight the RPT was definitely not a measure of greatness for speed as it was against the wrong type of horse and the Guineas will prove a much much tougher test if he goes there against much better horses over a mile than he met in the RPT.

You are suffering from a massive hype problem ... SNA won the RPT by 3.75 lengths against middle distance horses. Look at the Guineas winning distances below and you know whatever wins is likely to do so by under 2 lengths. Nothing way back has won by this, Kings Best won by 3.5 lengths but the probability is much less. The last Guineas in the list might interest you ;)


1 1 Sea The Stars (IRE) 8/1 3 9-0 John M Oxx 112 * * »
b c Cape Cross (IRE) - Urban Sea (USA) (Miswaki) M J Kinane
Held up in touch, headway to track leaders going well over 2f out, ridden and every chance over 1f out, led just inside final furlong, ran on well to assert final 50yds (op 9-1 tchd 11-1 in a place and 10-1 in places)

« 2 15 1½ Delegator 3/1F 3 9-0 B J Meehan 115 * * »



1 10 Henrythenavigator (USA) 11/1 3 9-0 A P O'Brien

In other words there is not much between the top milers each year.

It also highlights how important wintering is. Someone had a go at me for taking an interest in Canford Cliff progress however when the distances involved are small it is extremely important from 2 to 3.

Incidentally George Washington showed amazing speed over 6f (remember the Phoenix) as a 2 yo and many questioned whether he would get the mile. That is what I like to see from a prospective Guineas winner .. stretching that speed to a mile. Maybe Canford Cliffs is a similar type we will have to wait and see. Staying types winning Guineas over speedy types is rare and it would be really unusual to be a repeat of Sea The Stars.

Kirk,the answer is YES he is champion 2y old so he is better than all 2 y'olds.

Anyone got the list of Champion 2 yo colts?

Kirk,However hard you look you wont see the name STEINBECK on it,but you will see SNA on it,that goes for the GNS as well.I think you know this really............ but you have backed Steinbeck,and now you wish you hadn't.