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charwell.
02 Oct 12 22:47
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Date Joined: 28 Sep 04
| Topic/replies: 8,515 | Blogger: charwell.'s blog
As Chris Foy finds himself in charge of a league 2 game for the first time since February 2008 following MUFC criticism of failure to award them a penalty v Spurs & for only having 4 minutes injury time; & Mark Halsey gets 2 PL games following a wideley criticised inept performance in the LFC v MUFC match which strongly favoured the visitors guess who is in charge of the next Man Utd league game? .... http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/news/news/match-officials-appointments-6-7-october.html

That's right Howard Webb! Interesting isn't it & the following article makes for fascinating debate:




Oliver Stone once said: “Paranoia is having all the facts”. Many of us die hard football fans know exactly what he means.

I've long held the view that something very fishy goes on in English football.

I’m not the most naturally trusting of guys anyways. When it comes to institutions, I'm downright skeptical of them. I have very little respect or trust in governments, police, and media or football institutions. It's not me being paranoid either: week after week, I’m proven correct on my doubts about them (to any Liverpool fan the findings of the Hillsborough report came as absolutely no surprise).

When it comes to football, it's not even lack of trust. It's plain common sense.

In recent years, we've had a huge number of corruption scandals all across Europe. Several of them in Italy, the corrupt referee Hoyser in Germany, Fenerbahce being docked their title in Turkey, Spain's second division scandals, Marseille a while ago in France, Porto in Portugal etc...

Of course, the one league where nothing ever gets proven to be dodgy is in England. The richest and most watched league in the world is, we are told, completely squeaky clean.

Leaving aside the sheer ridiculousness of that statement, ask yourself this: if corruption gets proven all across Europe, how is the most popular league in the world, with the biggest prize monies in football, whose clubs are owned by some of the richest people in the world, run by stakeholders that are the most powerful media moguls in the world, immune from this? With the amounts of money at stake, how has it managed to be so clean for so long?

To dismiss any talks of corruption in the premier league is to fall for 2 of the traits that characterize the English the most: a sheer egocentric belief that they are better than anyone else and their complete faith in the country's institutions. To them, it’s entirely logical that that stuff goes on abroad where institutions are corrupt, but it’s impossible in England. Just like diving is a foreign disease and Uruguay is the epicenter of racism, unlike the multi cultural tolerance of middle England.

I share neither of those traits. By pure logic, when I see corruption in every facet of English life (MP's expenses scandal, banking sector, the war on Iraq, Leveson enquiry, Hillsborough, The Guilford 4, The Birmingham 6 et all...) as well as entire European football, I ask why is it impossible as many deem, for it to be happening in English football too?

I have followed football since 1986. I have seen for years how Manchester United benefits from refereeing decisions. I don’t need an investigation to tell me this: it happens on a near weekly basis to the point where people are so immune to it, they laugh it off.



I have seen the influence Alex Ferguson has on every facet of the English game. When his Darren son got fired as manager of Preston North End, I watched with bemusement as Ferguson immediately recalled his loan players from Deepdale. I then watched in horror as another club in the premier league, managed by Ferguson’s father’s friend Tony Pullis, also recalled their loan players from PNE.

The message was clear: Mess with Mr Ferguson or his children, and you will be punished.

And not just from Mr Ferguson either. By his friends in football.

Recently, ex referee Jeff Winter stated that he once sent Roy Keane off in a match. He was then criticized by Ferguson and not given a Manchester United game to referee for 2 years. He saw that as punishment as he said that “The FA is reticent to give Manchester United games to referees that Ferguson has criticized in the past”.



Read that statement again. Ferguson criticizes referees that give decisions against his club. Most likely, these decisions happen in games Manchester United lose. The FA reacts to the criticism by not assigning said referees in future Manchester United games. Thus, the only referees assigned to United games are ones that Ferguson approves of.

The referees that have given decisions Ferguson deem to be incorrect against United, however, no longer referee their games (usually the most high profile ones). It’s a terrible indictment of sporting impartiality, justice and the way the game is run in England. This form of selective referee assignement led to the Juventus scandal in 2006.

Winter’s comments prompted me to do my own research. I focused on the referees that took charge of United 2 biggest high profile losses in the last decade or so.

Alain Wiley refereed United’s 4-1 loss to Liverpool in 2009. In that game, he gave both United and Liverpool penalties and sent off Nemanja Vidic. All 3 decisions were absolutely correct and Wiley was praised by Sky TV co-commentator Andy Gray for his performance. Not even Ferguson complained.



Later that year, Wiley was given another United game to referee and despite sending off Kieran Richardson of Sunderland, Wiley was lambasted by Ferguson for being “fat and unfit”. The game ended 2-2.

That would be the end of Wiley’s refereeing career. Wiley, it says cryptically on his Wikipedia page, “agreed to retire” at the end of that season. Agreed with whom? No one knows.

Last season, Manchester City romped to a 6-1 win at Old Trafford, inflicting on their rivals their biggest embarrassment under Ferguson. The referee on that day was Mark Clattenburg. He sent Johnny Evans off in the second half for a clear professional foul.

There have been 34 Man United league games since that day. The number of times times Clattenburg has refereed them? Zero. Not a single one.

It seems that the FA, for whatever reason, doesn’t want Clattenburg to referee Man United games anymore. Some of us more paranoid folk may just wonder who’s behind that decision.
The FA has no hesitation to hand United games to Howard Webb though: he’s been the most used referee in 34 United games since the 6-1 defeat to City.

Webb’s history in Man United games are well known and documented. All I have to say on the matter is that more than 18% of the penalties he’s awarded in his ENTIRE premier league refereeing career have gone to Manchester United. Over a 9 year period, that’s a huge percentage.



So in closing, let’s resume what we’ve discovered. We have an ex premier league referee who has openly stated he was not handed a Manchester United game for 2 years after sending off one of their players. We have an FA who, in said referee’s words, don’t hand Manchester United games to referees that the United manager has previously criticized.

We have a referee who took charge of a heavy United defeat and “agreed to retire” a year later after being called unfit by Alex Ferguson. We have another referee who hasn’t been handed a United game to officiate since he reffed a heavy United defeat 34 league games ago.

Meanwhile, the most used official in United games in that time is the man who has handed 18% of his entire career penalty awards to Ferguson’s team.

Factor in the fact that Manchester United CEO is ON THE BOARD OF the English FA, Alex Ferguson is a knight of the realm with political connections that go a lot deeper than football (just read Allistair Campbell’s diaries if you don’t believe me), and the evidence in the Darren Ferguson sacking that clubs that cross Ferguson get punished by his friends, and you have all the tools there for someone more investigative than me to really delve into.

But yet, nothing happens. Year on year, I watch as not a single journalist utters a peep on the subject. I watch as decision after decision goes United’s way and people in the UK, so much better than everyone else and trusting of their institutions remember, brush them off with insouciance.

In Italy, there would have been phone tap investigations a long time ago. In "so much cleaner than everywhere else" England, we’re paranoid.

Why is that?

Well, when you look at who runs the sport in the country, you understand a bit more. Rupert Murdoch’s Sky live off the premier league. So do his other publications like the Sun. The English media’s last priority is going to investigate and damage one of their biggest cash cows.



Imagine the hit to the revenue streams of the media and clubs if corruption is proved in the premier league? The richest league in the world, so carefully and beautifully marketed across the world, would suffer a huge blow. The effects an investigation would have on Manchester United, the cash cow’s biggest cash cow, would also be devastating.

So it’s all swept under the tabled and every refereeing decision shrugged off. “They even themselves out” we’re told by journalists who get banned from United press conferences for asking a question about team selection.

God knows what would happen to them if they investigate United’s behind the scenes dealings.

Maybe, like Preston, they’ll learn that if you cross Man United, all of football will turn their backs on you too…

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Replies: 258
By:
triumphoragony
When: 02 Oct 12 23:04
SPOT ON!!! Take to nights coverage of man utd, clive tydlesley should be working for man utd t.v, eh hang on HE IS!!! You just wait and see all the decisions that will go against EVERTON if they have the AMBITION to try and break into the top four or een TRY and win the league, the ENGLISH FA will stop them !!!!
By:
scaredmoney
When: 02 Oct 12 23:17
a very thought provoking article sir
By:
KJPG
When: 02 Oct 12 23:19
very well written and very informative, the sooner Fergie retires the better for everyone
By:
freddiek
When: 02 Oct 12 23:20
You see where they sent poor Foy this weekend?

Accrington Stanley vs Rochdale . Threw the book at him Laugh
By:
themover
When: 02 Oct 12 23:22
man lands on moon
By:
a bitofinterest
When: 02 Oct 12 23:23
THE SWEET FA Cool
By:
donny osmond
When: 02 Oct 12 23:31
might as well give man utd the trophy now
By:
Biscuit1979
When: 02 Oct 12 23:31
Is that a joke? Foy's seriously been demoted THREE divisions just because he didn't give them a penalty?
By:
tobermory
When: 02 Oct 12 23:34
tbf Biscuit it wasn't only that, he also failed to add 9 minutes on at the end
By:
Biscuit1979
When: 02 Oct 12 23:36
Just looked it up, he actually has been sent to league two!

Fck me that is ridiculous.
By:
Shaky
When: 02 Oct 12 23:38
surely that's not charwell starting another man utd thread is it???? does a day go by without him thinking of man utd? LaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh
By:
charwell.
When: 02 Oct 12 23:48
Why is it anti Man Utd? Have I attacked or written anything that is incorrect? I have reproduced an article for discussion which I found worth discussing. Perhaps you would like to contribute to the debate ina meaningful manner?
By:
donny osmond
When: 02 Oct 12 23:52
no matter what time of day, there is always at least one man utd fan on duty to rebut any accusation


that doesnt suit their view on life





is there an observer book for manchester united fans whereby they tick boxes and gain points for defending various points up for discussion
By:
Shaky
When: 02 Oct 12 23:55
I never said it was anti-man utd, i just enjoy the irony that you always seem to point out whenever man utd talk about liverpool.
By:
fecdave
When: 02 Oct 12 23:56
Liverpool fan in making stuff up to suit their own agenda shocker.
By:
Shaky
When: 02 Oct 12 23:56
*man utd fans
By:
charwell.
When: 03 Oct 12 00:02
wHAT IS MADE UP ABOUT THE ARTICLE i PASTED PLEASE?
By:
Biscuit1979
When: 03 Oct 12 00:03
fecdave 02 Oct 12 23:56 
Liverpool fan in making stuff up to suit their own agenda shocker.





to be fair everything in his post is true
By:
scaredmoney
When: 03 Oct 12 00:03
all true from what i can see
By:
Shaky
When: 03 Oct 12 00:07
you do realise that the paranoia, that Brendan Rodgers has succumbed to much faster than i expected, does your own team no favours at all?
By:
themover
When: 03 Oct 12 00:10
Shaky fires in the usual rebuff "what about your club" Laugh
By:
themover
When: 03 Oct 12 00:13
when will the full list of penalties that United should have been given be produced please?

Laugh
By:
scaredmoney
When: 03 Oct 12 00:20
the mover.....they started a thread on that very subject after Saturdays game LaughLaughLaugh
By:
Pootle
When: 03 Oct 12 00:57
In the 80s Liverpool got loads of decisions especially at anfield (the kop, especially in the days of standing used to have a massive impact on refs) these days its united who often seem to get favoured. But, you can find dodgy decisions for all clubs if you look hard enough

Everton Newcastle a couple of weeks back - Everton get two goals disallowed that on replay shouldnt have been
VERY Next game against Swansea, Everton get a goal allowed when Fellaini had handled it.
Swings and roundabouts? Or refs letting it go / giving benefit of the doubt because 6 days earlier they knew a fellow ref had messed up ?

aka **** happens

Why not explore some of Graeme Polls decisions with Liverpool for example - in some cases you'll find Liverpool bias, but then in other games seemingly anti liverpool decisions, so which was he, or was he just incompetent ?
Brian Barwick who was chief exec of the FA for 3/4 years, liverpool fan - surely that is as relevent as - "Factor in the fact that Manchester United CEO is ON THE BOARD OF the English FA" - Barwick who was appointed in a role at Liverpool earlier this year.

Do United get some dodgy penalties.. yes of course they do, show me a premier league club who hasnt in the past few years had a couple of pens that shouldnt have been given, given. Or indeed vice versa.
Does Fergie TRY and intimidate refs and the FA, yes of course he does. He's not the only one who does it though, nor the only one who tries.

I'm not saying its all innocent 100% and a certain degree of intimidation doesnt work, but if you want to look at potential corruption in the FA and refs, then you cant just look at incidents favouring one club, and say - there you go proof - whilst ignoring evidence involving other clubs.


If you've been watching football since 1986, you'll have seen plenty of dodgy decisions go for your team and against it, but most fans only remember those that went against.
Everton fans will name check Clive Thomas, or mention Alan Hansens handball, but we forget say, the disallowed goal Bolton scored in Autumn against us, in the season that saw them relegated and us stay up on the last day... Bolton fans remember it, but no doubt forget any dodgy decisions that went their way.


Thing is, creating the paranoia and feeding it just plays into fergies hands - no matter what we do we cant topple united they have the backing of the authorities !
Well then thats the opposition mentally crushed.

Dominance of a team like United, like Liverpool in the 80s, relies not only on ability, but also on mental factor, fear factor, and paranoia about refs just plays into that, its self defeating.

Just look what happened to Rafa when he let it get to him, lets talk about facts - it doesnt matter if he was correct at the time, he made a fool of himself in the way he did it. The managers who have done the best against Fergie over the years have either laughed off anything he says, or done similar in return. Not whinged about it, those are the guys who get broken.


Fergies influence on which refs they get ?
I know about 4-5 years back a ref had a woeful time in an Everton game, Moyes complained and we didnt have that ref again for years.
In fact it was Clattenberg after the Derby where Kuyt karate kicked Neville and anyone who saw it said straight red, but he wasnt carded.

"Perhaps Clattenburg's fiercest criticism in top-flight refereeing followed his officiating of the Merseyside derby between Everton and Liverpool on 20 October 2007............... Clattenburg was not appointed to referee another Everton match until 2012."

5 years.
Was that Moyes having sway over the FA ??
Or the FA protecting their own ref ??

As for Clattenberg not reffing united games because of the 6-1 game
He was the ref who didnt give spurs that goal that was a yard over the line at Trafford
He was the ref that let Nani's goal stand against spurs when spurs thought it was their freekick (the handball thing)
Soooooo If he pro united or anti-united ?

I am sure you'll find there are refs who get more or less of various clubs games, if you look.

the problems with conspiracies and paranoia are that if you focus on one thing, you cant see the wood for the trees and everything begins to look like evidence especially if your mind is made up, if you cast your net far and look with open mind at the bigger picture, then often its not what it first seems.



Footnote
All that said, UEFA turned to Collina to ensure Everton didnt progress against Villareal and thus preventing England having 5 teams in the champions league (Platinis 'nightmare'). Collina retired, then came out of retirement for one game, disallowed a goal for Everton, then retired again the next week.

See even the most even handed of us likes a little conspiracy Laugh
By:
themover
When: 03 Oct 12 01:06
ah ok it's all a conspiracy thoery, thank goodness for that. I knew it couldn't possibly be true the idea of corruption in the English game and that it's only something that occurs elsewhere in the footballing world.

I can now move on

.....FULL BANK Man United at Newcastle

Laugh
By:
Pootle
When: 03 Oct 12 01:17
I'm not saying English football is completely squeaky clean that is a different matter
But the idea that its corrupt and all aimed to benefit UNITED and only UNITED whilst ignoring any decisions involving other teams is very blind and naive.
By:
peter the butcher
When: 03 Oct 12 01:23
Personally I thought it was a very funny article. I mean come on, anybody can produce "evidence" about virtually anybody and anything if they only look for facts or supposition to back their argument. It is a very poor article written by somebody who doesn't know the meaning of balance or context.

Here is something I prepared earlier for the OP, my mate charwell (hi mate Grin) as he quite likes Liverpool Devil

This is taken from the season Liverpool blew the league title;





    Penalties given to United  4

    v Tottenham 5-2
    v Liverpool 1-4
    v Everton 1-0
    v Bolton 2-0

    Only one penalty made the result. Rest of them didn't change scoreline.

    Penalties given against United  3

    v Fulham 2-0
    v Liverpool 1-4
    v Hull 4-3

    Penalties (except Hull) were in matches where United lost.

    Number of United players sent off  5

    Scholes v Fulham 2-0
    Rooney v Fulham 2-0
    Vidic v Liverpool 1-4
    Vidic v Liverpool 2-1
    Ronaldo v Man City 0-1

    United lost every game in which a player was sent off (except City).

    Number of opposing players sent off  2

    Robinson from West Brom (0-5)
    Wilkinson from Stoke (0-1)



Let's look at Liverpool now.

    Penalties given to Liverpool 5


    v Villa 5-0
    v Villa 5-0
    v United 4-1
    v Newcastle 5-1
    v West Ham 3-0

    5 wins.

    Penalties given against Liverpool  2

    v United 4-1
    v Wigan 1-1

    Only Mido's penalty cost them one point.

    Number of Liverpool players sent off 0

    Number of opposing players sent off 10, YES 10 !!

    Barton from Newcastle (3-0)
    Folan from Hull (3-1)
    Friedel from Villa (5-0)
    Vidic from United (4-1)
    Vidic from United (2-1)
    Lampard from Chelsea (2-0)
    Adebayor from Arsenal (1-1)
    Valencia from Wigan (3-2)
    Zabelta from Man City (3-2)
    Cahill from Everton (2-0)

    More than a quarter of league matches with Liverpool playing in advantage of one player. Nine wins, one draw.


So what does all that mean? Naff all imo.


Maybe that is because some people don't always look to blame anything and everything after a loss. Yes we can have a moan about a decision but United lost to Spurs because they were excellent in the first half, we dominated in the second half but missed chance after chance. Might have had a penalty but didn't. It happens doesn't it.


Some clubs blame the ref, some clubs blame the FA, some clubs talk about conspiracies against them, some clubs blame SAF, some clubs blame lack of funds, some blame the woodwork. One club blames all the above.........
By:
themover
When: 03 Oct 12 01:34
All of the threads on this sort of topic get turned into a list of incidents when a certain team feel they got treated unfairly, and I'm sure we've all seen hundreds of them a month! But what the initial post was about is the selection of referees for matches and how those selections come about. It implies that certain clubs (in this case Man Utd, but I would expect there are others) have certain referees selected for their matches because they haven't had a "run-in" with that referee. Forgetting Howard Webbs number of penalties because without looking back at each one I couldn't say whether they were the correct decision or not...just by quoting a number of penalties he has awarded is twaddle if they were all penalties. Does anyone know how the referee for a match is decided, because I don't. It does seem strange that Mark Clattenburg hasn't been the ref at another United match since the City one..is there a good reason for that?
By:
peter the butcher
When: 03 Oct 12 01:38
That post about the United and Liverpool stats above was posted by a United fan on a popular Liverpool FC forum. The reaction was hilarious. honestly I was crying with laughter.

See what you think;




Penalties given to United  4

v Tottenham 5-2 WASN'T A PEN AND CHANGED THE GAME AS WELL AS THE SECOND FOUL, ADVANTAGE GIVEN WHEN TOTTENHAM NEVER HAD THE BALL
v Bolton 2-0 WAS WORSE THAN WEBB'S DECISION, WORSE PEN DECISION EVER SEEN, THEIRS FOUR POINTS U HAVE BEEN GIVEN.

Penalties given against United 3

NO MENTION OF BORO YESTERDAY SHOULD HAVE HAD A PEN, NEVER KNOW WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED AFTER THAT. COULD HAVE DRAWN SO TAKE 2 OFF. THE BLACKBURN ONE AT Old Trafford. INSTEAD OF GOING 2-1 BEHIND U WON 2-1. THEIRS ANOTHER THREE POINTS ADDED TO THE OTHER 4. COULD HAVE BEEN 4+2+3=9


Number of United players sent off 5

ALL DESERVED
  (pmsl)


Number of opposing players sent off  2

ROBINSON WON THE BALL AND PARK GOT HIM SENT OFF. RONALDO KICKS OUT AT STOKE TWICE NOTHIN DONE ABOUT IT THEN GETS WILKINSON SENT OFF. TWO MORE REF DECISIONS. POSSIBLE STOKE GAME AFFECTED BY IT SO 9+2= 11


Penalties given to Liverpool 8

APART FROM ATLETICO ALL PENS. AND SHOULD BE MORE.
LaughLaugh


Number of opposing players sent off  10

BARING LAMPARD, WERE CHELSEA WERE THE POORER SIDE ANYWAY, NEVER DESERVED TO GO, SOME MAY SAY 4 YEARS TO LATE THOUGH AFTER HE BROKE ALONSO'S LEG.

HOW ABOUT GIGGS GOAL AT UPTON PARK WERE HE GOT THE BALL FROM OFFSIDE POSITION. AND GIGGS SETTING ROONEY UP AGAINST PORTSMOUTH. 4 MORE POINTS.

11+4=15

NOT TO FORGET THE DRAW WIT STOKE WHEN WE SCORED AN NOT GIVEN. 15+2=17. LOOK AT THAT AND WE HAVE WON THE LEAGUE, NOW TELL ME HOW THE OFFICIALS HAVE NOT HELPED MAN U. 17 POINT SWING. 11 POINTS CLEAR WITH 12 TO PLAY FOR.


Oh no we didn't realise Liverpool were 11 points clear with 12 to play for, we are fecked.........LaughLaugh


Seriously though, how funny are football fans?
By:
peter the butcher
When: 03 Oct 12 01:42
themover

this is what the referees body has to say about Chris Foy and it probably answers some part of your question;


"There are 16 select group officials who are rotated around ten games - it would be remiss of anyone to suggest that he has been demoted," Phil Dorward, head of PR for PGMO, told Goal.com.

"He’s done five out of six [Premier League games] so far this season but the select group don’t just do Premier League games they do Football League games as well.

"Howard Webb was on a Football League game a couple of weeks ago and all of our officials will be doing Football League games over the course of the season."

Dorward also expressed his belief that Foy, who refereed the 2010 FA Cup final, will be back in the top flight the following week.

"He has refereed more games than most [at Premier League level]. There are 16 guys who can ref our games every week and there are only 10 games so six of those guys will be without games," he added.

"I’ll be astonished if Chris is not [back in the Premier League next week] but the point is it’s not a demotion. Categorically not."
By:
tobermory
When: 03 Oct 12 01:44
Penalties given to United  4

    v Tottenham 5-2
    v Liverpool 1-4
    v Everton 1-0
    v Bolton 2-0

    Only one penalty made the result. Rest of them didn't change scoreline.

   
That is seriously flawed reasoning !!!

To assume that what happens after a pen awarded would have happned anyway is absurd IMO .So you are saying it didn't matter that Webb gave the pen v Spurs because United would have won 4-2 anyway Crazy

that pen was awarded while the score was 0-2 and Spurs were looking comfortable .Every pundit agreed that the decision turned the match
By:
themover
When: 03 Oct 12 01:47
thanks Peter. It doesn't really explain how it is decided, for example, A Taylor is selected for the Chelsea v Norwich match or P Dowd for the West Ham match (notice I avoided Howard Webb Laugh). I accept they are on rotation but are they on rotation for selected venues or is it based on location or something else?
By:
peter the butcher
When: 03 Oct 12 01:51
tobermory

I am not saying anything mate. I copied and pasted that to show how ridiculous these sorts of arguments are.

The one that I pasted was obviously written by a United fan, I am sure a Liverpool fan could conjure up something for a different season to add weight to their argument and so on.
By:
tobermory
When: 03 Oct 12 01:55
ok fair enough.

I do think the context in which a pen is awarded is important .One of the most absurd awards i ever saw was for Bolton at Old Trafford about 2006/07 ish , just could not even imagine why it was given .But the score at the time was ManU 4-0 Bolton and it was the 94th minute . But that will show up in those sort of stats to prove that particular ref is not afraid to give teams pens away to United.
By:
peter the butcher
When: 03 Oct 12 01:58
The refs are picked on various things. The location of the ground relative to where they live or were born, their standing in the refs merit table and also how often they have reffed a particular club already that season. There are other factors but I can't remember them.

Oh and which team they support,

Howard Webb supports Rotherham
Mike Jones- Liverpool
Mike Dean- Liverpool
Clattenburg- Newcastle
Marriner- Everton

I honestly don't know of one who owns up to supporting United.
By:
themover
When: 03 Oct 12 02:14
found this write up which is quite interesting :

http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/archives/20069
By:
hitmanhearn
When: 03 Oct 12 06:49
Fergie time? Utd games last 18 secs on average longer when they are losing.
By:
donny osmond
When: 03 Oct 12 11:00
there are some bad refs around, not all of them, but i find , in general, that the standard of reffing in european games is miles better than that in premier league

is it because i am more bothered, or take a keener interest ???




ref last night in cluj v man utd was more or less a stereotype of the way games have been reffed in europe since euro 2012

our premier league refs seem, at times, to have missed the message
By:
Redrebel5
When: 03 Oct 12 11:32
Mark Halsey & Howard Webb to referee all United's remaining fixtures this season.

Just been on SSN.
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