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did jesus of the new testament exist??
did jesus of the new testament exist??
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If even those who interpret work of the 7th century BC as being ambivalent guidance of religion cant agree as to who this supposed Jesus was then how likely is it any of them are correct?
Id say very slim. Catholics argue he was the triune while protestants say he was Christ and islam says he was a prophet. He was most likely a cynic philosopher (there is evidence he was born within miles of a known cynic enclave) and his teachings are very close if not direct plagiarism of Socrates. Of course the matter isnt helped in the slightest by those who want to believe he was something he probably wasnt when they attest to having his foreskin in a jar (yes, all seven of them) which merely shows them to be daft. The relics are fake and so are the assertions. Henry VIII dissolved the monasteries and engaged in iconoclasm based on the interpretations of martin Luther, a preacher who is as likely to have got the closest when he said you need do nothing, or words to that effect. Deuteronomy, theogeny, the works that became an edited old testament, the iliad, the odyssey and many others were all written at the same time, many of which interlink with similarities based on the fact they were all written by human hand and likely not to have been ever influenced by god....and they were all written around the same time because of the implementation of parchment to record stories and observation, just like the age of computing resulted in an abundance of self journalism. |
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if you have the truth, why listen to lies.
Every word from Jesus is in the quote books. Isaiah and Daniel both describe him 500 and 700 years before he came. Many messianic jews believe he was the messiah because of Isaiah 53 alone. the old testament was translated by Ptolomy in 300 BC to Greek. those match up with the new testament accounts - 24,000 new testament manuscripts exist from the 1st century. The dead sea scrolls are carbon dated. they match with modern Jewish scrolls. The Jews make meticulous copies by hand, if they make one minute mistake when writing it out - they scrap the entire scroll. It's trustworthy - only a mental case who's avoiding the truth for mad reasons of hanging onto his lone wolf reputation or his sins cannot understand it. |
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Makes me think of how the JWs try to claim the old testament was accurate based on the fact 'many biblical scholars' agree (to the interpretation that it never said the world wasnt created billions of years ago), now science has showed it to be older than originally interpreted (by biblical scholars)
 There lays the rub, since they accuse science of not having the answers but the vast majority of work to which they rely is ambivalent interpretation of very few works....that each were written by man. Some of whom attest to witnessing miracles and other fantastical events, yet everyone else has to take their word for it. |
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Since you are one of the followers zorro could you tell me the answer to a few questions?
What purpose other than the obvious entrapment of humanity through temptation did the tree of life and knowledge provide? and Why do the modern followers of Jesus today suggest that our bashful nature in nakedness is evidence of shame of sin when many tribes in the pacific never wore clothes until the navigators from the west arrived? (since if they are true they are to spawn of adam and eve too) |
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It's trustworthy - only a mental case who's avoiding the truth for mad reasons of hanging onto his lone wolf reputation or his sins cannot understand it.
That's wonderful Zorro. So you think that someone who Does not believe the virgin birth of Jesus Does not believe that humans were raised from the dead two millennia ago Does not believe in creationism Does not believe in miracles as well as all manner of other batsh1t Does not talk to an invisible friend ...is a mental case avoiding the truth for mad reasons? |
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There is a constant narrative that everyone falls for without thinking.
It is that life around them is magnificent and beautiful and that they were the lucky ones to experience it. Well that might be true, but it might not. We are constantly told by other humans how beauty is the essence of god, that the absence of him is the manifestation of evil. Both are fundamentally untrue. Good and evil are man made constructs that dont exist in anything else other than within artificially made civilisation, which itself is just a veneer of deceit, an anachronism to something that never existed. Its a myth, even in the birth of democracy war and slavery was rife. Im told that everything is beautiful yet I never chose to be in it so is this heaven? Well it cant be because religion tells me I am fallible yet I see the injustice of culpable 'original sin' (being damned for being the spawn of a criminal) and I as a fallible human can visualise a world greater than this, so what does that make this world? |
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by the way.
I would never actively talk the pious out of believing. Its not my role to talk humans out of their imaginations. If religion gives solace then it serves a purpose whether correct or not. There is nothing more sure than the fact we shall all fall in grief an pain. |
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blessed are the cheesemakers
Zorro - just because it's written down in a book doesn't mean it's true |
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a lot of questions there... i'll try and explain... although you could have googled a christian site.
If God can voice the universe into existence - can he raise a man from the dead? If God exists in higher dimensions is he a subject of Time, which he created. The answer to those questions are obvious. God created man with free will - he told him not to eat the fruit because it would lead to death - the tree is called the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That's important. God is outside of time - he knew they would eat, and at the same time he saw jesus on the cross and at the same time he saw his return to earth to destroy all evil. free will means we have a choice, we are not puppets. We have to learn for ourselves why evil as a choice is wrong, it leads to corruption of a good thing. It leads to death. 6000 years of horrible actions. Disease and death. That's the lesson. Why would we choose it again. Those that haven't learnt the lesson, that prefer death have the free will to choose that. To me it's a bad choice. You can have that. God has the right to dispose of the by product of the creation which he created. Sin will be swept away into a fire. Quarantined for eternity. God made us all immortal and can't leave evil lying about to infect his new creation. You distrust historical documents? yet you say the world is billions of years old. You trust the scholars you want to trust. You pick your knowledge base that supports your own world viewpoint. You won't acknowledge God's hand in creation. You believed stories about abiogenesis which has been abandoned recently by scientists. You make up spurious links to lemurs as man's ancestors. It's pitiful. God's plan is at an end and you are hanging flowers on trees and worshiping nature like the Hindus. 1 person fulfilling 8 prophecies: 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 1 person fulfilling 48 prophecies: 1 chance in 10 to the 157th power 1 person fulfilling 300+ prophecies: Only Jesus - fulfilled 300 prophecies of the old testement. like Lazarus - people told you it was happening. You had the truth placed at your feet and you kicked it away. Nobody asked you for cash. Nobody asked you to bend a knee. Only pride kept you from accepting a free gift. enjoy the barbeque. |
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Morning!, it's God here I come in peace. will send my Son round later to knock some sense into ya..
Moses nicked me tablets so have had a headache for ages..anyway I'm busy and I can't do everything at once people expect me to be in more than one place at the same time.. |
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That's so funny -
keep pressing the button. he's coming back with no more delay. Samael the prosecution in your court case will be laughing that you dismissed the defence. |
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Every ounce of your faith is reliant on the say so of fallible man while in the knowledge that man is a liar and a cheat.
While everything in your life that you rely on daily is the manifestation of science, which asks you to believe nothing and was the result of passing the test of experimentation. So you can either believe in something somebody thought might have been the meaning of something somebody might have said referring to something God might have wanted. Or you can look at the results of everything that was proven to work, and that you ignore in your dismissal of logical thought. |
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Jesus walks....
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I've nothing against science? It's a tool.
it provides good stuff and bad stuff - if you are making it something to be worshipped it's your choice? You said man was a liar and a cheat? I never said that. I refer you to the bible as to what GOD said and wanted. Not might have said. It's written down on paper. God's plan is 6000 years to completion - Adam was 4004 BC - time is up. the covenant of Grace that Jesus left in place is ending. With it ending, the agreement between man and God ends. The land reverts back to God. God will take back the land. Evil will resist. Evil will be defeated. Jesus will claim the the throne of David and rule for a thousand years until the 7000 years is over. Mankind(many) will be with God forever. be on the wrong side of that. |
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I'm not implying science even requires worship, I'm saying what comes from it is irrefutable unlike what comes from religion.
You might argue science comes up with errors but that's the very process that finds the truth and the proof is found in the things around you, even the thing you are using right now to communicate. I never said you said man is a liar, your religion attests to his fallibilities and it is the reliance on that lack of integrity that the whole of your house is built since the bible isn't the word of God, at best it's a contrived and ambiguous account written by man on the thoughts of what God might want, while everyone who reads it and everyone who doesn't has no direct proof. Unlike the direct proof they find as results of science. How can evil resist? The non religious recognise it as a handle used to explain stuff they don't care for and the religious refer to it as the absence of gods love..... Are you therefore suggesting the absence of something is now something? |
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Incidentally you never explained why those descendents of Adam and Eve who lived in hot climates never showed the shame of being naked until it was brought to them with the message of Jesus by westerners whom they'd never encountered or heard of.
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Zorro's problem is he is unwilling to change his views even slightly when confronted with
factual evidence. |
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From a theological point of view Calvin got it right imo. If God knows everything then he knows who are going to heaven ( The Elect ) and those who aren't. Nothing you do in life can alter that.
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From recollection there wasn't a lot of distance between Calvin and Luther (based purely on memory of European history in school) but you can sort of understand where Calvin comes from when he sees even those within his own faith divided on interpretation.....which sums up the farce entirely.
Personally I'm agnostic, I'll never dismiss the religious as cranks incase there's something that resonates, but having read quite a bit of a whole lot of stuff including religion I come to the conclusion it's the least likely of probables. |
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The Bible contains arguments where people try to change God's mind, such as passages in Job, Jonah, Genesis, etc. God is outside of time. Islam is fatalistic, but Christianity is not. In PILGRIM'S PROGRESS, Bunyan depicted a gate for Pilgrim to pass through...on one side, the gate had written on it, "Enter by your own free will," yet when Pilgrim passed through he looked back to see "Predestined from the beginning of time," on the other side of the gate. I'm paraphrasing here as it's many years since I read the book.
I knew a pastor who was often asked, "Are you a Calvinist of Arminian?" and his reply was, "Neither - I'm a Christian." |
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What gets me is when you point out how awful and murderous the God of the Old Testament was they say
God changed read the new Testament then they want us to bow down, praise and apologize for our sins to a God like that... |
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I would say that the word "god" is an empty word that can be filled with many false ideas. I don't believe in religion at all. I believe that Jesus of the New Testament - see THREAD TITLE - is God Almighty, the creator of the universe. Certainly, the Bible is a peculiar selection of writings, but I would expect nothing less.
So I believe that God is not an abstract idea or a set of physical laws - He is a person, just like you and me. Obviously, this is an wondrous and provocative idea...in fact, not just an idea, but a THING... Jesus said not to take vows, yet people take vows, and we've seen quite a few vows in this world - vows to organizations, monarchs, leaders, etc, and they tend to include a clause about FREE WILL. In the last few days, we even saw Trump take a vow by placing his hand on a book that ultimately tells him not to take a vow. Anyway, very few people actually take heed of Jesus or what he says in the New Testament. His name - which is above every other name in the universe - is used in this world as a curse word, which tells you a lot, really... |
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Breedingmad - the God of the Old Testament is the person hanging on the cross, crucified.
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That was his son.
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See Bible...
...and THE CRUCIFIED GOD by Jurgen Moltmann, if you SO CHOOSE... |
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Valezquez
How can that be true as Jesus needed 40 days and nights in the desert to get his head around temptation from Saran whom he created. |
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Satan
Ffs |
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Yes, Jesus claimed to be God himself, "The Father and I are One,"..."Whoever has seen me has seen the Father," etc. Christians believe that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...just as the same water can be fluid water, steam and ice...
So-called doubting Thomas met the resurrected Jesus and proclaimed "My Lord and my God!" to Jesus. Kinda tempted to post the Caravaggio painting but I won't...  |
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'Father, forgive them for they know not what they do'
He speaking to himself? |
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These theories are like the attempts to reverse engineer everything into an ill fitting narrative.
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* that not being a personal criticism, more one of a criticism of man made theology.
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Dusty - he didn't NEED 40 days and nights...that is a peculiar biblical number, like 3...7...12...40...and it symbolizes something specific...remember, the Jews of the OT had spent 40 years in the wilderness...
Satan was entitled to confront Jesus as he is "the god of this world, this present age..." I see LUTHER was mentioned earlier...  ...and he wrote, "Oh how God makes Satan sweat for the benefit of the saints!"Yeah, that's LUTHER, not LUTHIER, the sire of Sagace...what sort of betting forum is this...?? |
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Dusty, I like your thinking, dude - I watched films on youtube about Penn and Teller and TIM'S VERMEER -- in which they try to "reverse engineer" Vermeer's paintings - it's very interesting yet utterly bogus as they take no account of Vermeer's unique aesthetic decisions...they are treating a great artist as if he were a 21st century robot.
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Genius isn't a 'thing'
It's just a term for a level of skill acquired by virtue of a combination of nurture and nature. In my humble opinion.  |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_XG7NywtjM
JURGEN MOLTMANN WHO IS GOD FOR YOU? JURGEN MOLTMANN WITH MIROSLAV VOLF. |
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Dusty...how can it not be a THING in a "completely" physical / material universe...?
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Dusty - does digital information have any physical weight...?
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An ability isn't tactile, it's a perceived level of skill.
Somebody who has a talent to do something is merely the end product of the inputs, which happen to be among other things how receptive one is to learn. Beethoven' s hearing loss or (frankly most) artists failing eyesight were ingredients into the final outcome of works deemed by others to be manifestations of splendour. |
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Wow - btw, ST.LEGER drinking cup on BARGAIN HUNT there...think he wants £160...ME WANT...for twenty quid...
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"The number 40 generally symbolizes a period of testing, trial or probation."
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