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Snooker discussion: Putting topspin on a cueball
Snooker discussion: Putting topspin on a cueball
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Replies: 723
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This is even still the case now when modern technology has evened things out
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Referring to a draw shot. Either left or right handed player will hit the ball from the inside out meaning the club travelling away from their bodies.
This creates a spin for a right hander that would be inclined to turn counter clockwise and make the ball travel from right to left. When you do this the axis of the spin of the ball will turn much like a frisbee does when you throw it. It falls off to one side. Or skipping a rock, much the same, it doesn't stay flat. The ball travels the same way but in no way does it actually become top spin, it just merely rotates so that the ball has less direct backspin when it lands so that it will roll much further when it hits the ground since the resistance and backspin has turned slightly. |
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Angel Gabrael
Actually surprisingly most right handers especially amateurs have the tendency to impart clockwise spin on the ball leading to a weak fade or slice. The exact opposite of what you suggest |
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I'll bid you both farewell. Many thanks for your company this evening, gentlemen.
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Thanks Pokermaster and Angel Gabral..goodnight from me to
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Actually surprisingly most right handers especially amateurs have the tendency to impart clockwise spin on the ball leading to a weak fade or slice. The exact opposite of what you suggest
I was however only referring to a draw shot. However referring to the unintended fade. A simple grip change can correct this. If the right hand V turns slightly over anti clockwise. This will encourage the swing away from an out to in swing, avoiding the fade. |
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Goodnight gentlemen.
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All the things going on in the world:
Nurses commiting suicide. Child Abuse Trouble in Northern Ireland brewing again The paucity of white dog poo on our streets and gardens... And a thread about cueball topspin gets nearly 600 posts and counting. The World's gone mad |
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Pokermaster
I have had a quick look at some of the posts here and it seems that nobody seems to understand what topspin means. Let me give an example.If i was to ask someone to roll a snooker ball down the table using a finger they would instinctively set the ball in motion by running their finger up and slightly over the back of the ball to get the ball moving.This means the finger stays in contact for a slightly longer time than if the ball is just tapped.This is similar to the technique a snooker player uses when applying topspin.When a skilled player applies topspin correctly the cue is in contact with the ball for a fraction of a second longer than for a normal shot.This has the effect of increasing the sweet spot the cue strikes leading to a truer and more pure and powerful contact. This is what professional players do instinctively even if they do not know why |
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by running their finger up and slightly over the back of the ball to get the ball moving
How is this possible with the tip of the cue? think about it.  |
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Angel Gabrial please read carefully,i plainly stated that the cue is in contact with the ball for a fraction of a second longer than with a normal shot.This is all it takes.Incidentally it is perfectly easy to reproduce with the tip of the cue the same as a finger tip
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i suggest you think of doing it in slow motion if this makes it easier for you
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If you attempted this shot, the ferrel of the cue would be in contact with the cue ball causing a miscue.
I would rather debate this with someone who understands the mechanics of the sphere. As you have stated `you are rubbish at snooker`. You must give away many a penalty while cursing your tip. |
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Angel Gabrial you seem to be deliberately misunderstanding.I have told you that when played correctly there is a greater sweet spot for the cue to hit therefore making when playing a powerful shot a miscue less likely.This is why professional players do it.
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It is a difficult technique but is not so for a professional
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Lfc
Pokermonster was a professional snooker and pool player. Top spin in table tennis yes. Top spin in snooker no. You can not get over the cue ball with the tip. Anything else is just forward roll. |
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and although i say it is difficult it is also something every player even of average ability does instinctively even without knowing it
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Angel Gabrael
Pokermaster may very well have been a very fine player...but i would say that at least 90% of professional players do not really understand this..it is done instinctively by them almost as soon as they started playing |
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Think of a car wheel spinning. Would you say that that shot you have described is capable of such an action?
However if you played the bananas/massey shot then you can gain a similar action but with side spin. |
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Angel Gabrial i will have to say goodnight,thanks for the feedback maybe we can continue again
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Maybe just to say that it is possible that there is no such thing as backspin...just topspin applied to the underside of the ball
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There is no reverse spin until the white ball gathers momentum spin off the object ball.
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Angel Gabrial you might as well say that their is no topspin until the white ball gathers momentum spin off the object ball.
You only use the term reverse spin because of where the player is standing. In truth of course the cue ball has no knowledge of where the player is standing. |
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There is one more important thing in relation to topspin. You might say that if the cue is in contact with the ball(albeit for only a fraction of a second)longer than a normal shot then is this not technically a push shot? The answer is no and for this reason.
With a push shot really the cue ball is moved..pushed..without it really spinning. But with a topspin shot the ball starts to spin,again for a fraction of a sec. before it moves.This is something that i am not sure even professional players are aware off. |
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But with a topspin shot the ball starts to spin,again for a fraction of a sec.
I think that you are mistaking `spin` for rotation. Just because the ball is rotating does not classify it in this sense as spin. |
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Angel Gabrial you might as well say that their is no topspin until the white ball gathers momentum spin off the object ball.
Incorrect as the object ball that the cue ball is colliding into acts as a barrier which would negate any topspin. However with backspin. The object ball the cue ball is colliding into acts as an assistance for the reverse rotation of the cueball to `screw it back` |
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Angel Gabriel as i stated the cue ball has no knowledge of where the player is standing.Your answer seems determined not to even try to understand what i am saying
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You say i mistake spin for rotation..it is you who are mistaken.As i said rotation means forward movement..spin means reduced forward movement
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Hopefully can continue later tonight if poss.
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.spin means reduced forward movement
Spin is a gathering of energy buy increased rotation creating an increased acceleration in trajectory. |
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But with a topspin shot the ball starts to spin,again for a fraction of a sec. before it moves.This is something that i am not sure even professional players are aware off.
Because it never does. Unless you cue down on the white ball with the butt of the cue in the air striking down with a touch of side. If applying right hand side, on striking the cue ball it start it`s journey being directed left before gathering `spin` momentum on the spot and then momentum being released into and acceleration to the right via a curve of trajectory. Hence the banana shot. With a normal bridge hand no overspin of a forward direction can be generated. |
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Good afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you for your continued interest.
LFC: First of all, many thanks indeed for taking the time to read all the way through my thread. It is much appreciated, sir. I'll address the comments you have made, above. Although you put up a well-reasoned argument, it is a mistake to assume that a cuetip stays in contact with the cueball fractionally longer than a centre ball strike. Please do not take this as a criticism of your scientific knowledge, I understand that you are debating from a purely theoretical standpoint whereas I, on the other hand, enjoy the tremendous advantage of ultra high-speed camera equipment, my own pool room in which to practice, and many years of study to iron out my own many and frequent errors of judgement. In fact, if anything, a cuetip remains in contact with the cueball for slightly less time when striking above centre (though I should stress we are talking miniscule margins here). This is because the tip significantly compresses upon impact (as does the white itself to a lesser extent) and as this compression reduces the further one travels above the white's centre of mass, so does the cuetip's contact duration with the cueball. On the subject of push shots, they only tend to occur when the cueball is touching an object ball and the cueist fails to play away, thus moving the colour. This is actually permissable in American pool by the way. Nearly all other instances erroneously labled push shots are, in fact, double-hit fouls. I am aware of this for two reasons: one, the geeky camera stuff mentioned above; and two, the cueball's subsequent deflection path is the smoking gun if one knows how to analyse such things. One last point. Not that it matters much, but although Angel Gabrial is correct in nearly everything he has written on the thread, he flatters me when he wrote pool professional and snooker professional. It was just pool. I was a features writer for many snooker magazines, but never a professional player. Many thanks again for your contributions. |
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Good evening Pokermaster,and thankyou for your very entertaining thread
If i may address the point of the amount of time the cue tip is in contact with the ball for for normal verses topspin shots i agree when you say that the tip compresses on contact. And of course it seem logical that this compression is fractionally longer for a centre strike. However it may seem counter-intuitive but the reality is different for this reason.. Certainly if both the centre and above centre shots were played in the same way what you say would be true.However the 2 shots are not played in the same way and it is the action used by a skilled snooker player when playing topspin that means that the cue tip is in contact for a fraction of a second longer The subject of push shots is not really material to the question and was just an aside in my general explanation |
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Good evening, LFC.
The two strokes are played in the same way, sir, the only difference being a player raises his bridge accordingly. Your belief that a professional somehow rides up and over the cueball (however slight) is an erroneous one. Such an action would, as Angel Gabrial pointed out earlier, invariably cause a miscue. |
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I am sorry but you may as well say that a miscue is liable when playing a shot with backspin..as indeed it is for a poor player. However we are not talking about a poorly played shot but a well played one
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A backspin shot is a very different animal regards potential miscues, LFC, for the obvious reason that more of the cueball's mass is above the contact point. This fact makes miscues far less likely.
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Evening Gents
lfc Backspin is not generated by hitting the cueball alone. Hitting the cue ball near the bottom creates only reverse roll. The backspin is generated on contact with the object ball. On hitting the cue ball alone at the bottom only creates the drag shot. |
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possibly so,but as i am sure you know there is the real possibility of the ball jumping up and leaving the table!! Likewise with topspin the possibility of slipping off the cue ball.This is not really relevant
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Angel Gabrael good evening
What happens to the cue ball hitting anything else in the universe is immaterial |