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Rocketfingers
29 Jul 12 21:10
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Date Joined: 20 May 10
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Amazed to see some of the people there who are supporting them. That's all i'm going to say on the matter, seems to be a huge difference among the different classes in relation to this.

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Replies: 275
By:
squigs
When: 29 Jul 12 21:32
I'm sure your having a little fish here. But I couldn't agree more it quite honestly shocks me. Hearing some of these pathetic Concerned Irish Citizens on Vincent Browne this week, I was laughing as much as I was angry.

The big name GAA managers and pundits like the rest of that crowd are dragging the good name of Cavan down in support of people who have done wrong and continue to do wrong in the eyes of a civil court. Fleeing across to Fermanagh shows incredible cowardice.
By:
db1974
When: 29 Jul 12 21:35
Totally agree

You bet - you lose - you pay up
By:
Kelly
When: 30 Jul 12 03:03
The spin off from the Quinn saga raises a lot of questions , not all to do with the Quinn family activities .  Only one of them I know is Peter senior , ex president of the GAA , who did a great job when they were restructuring Croke Park .  Know quite a few in Fermanagh who earned a living in their own county mainly courtesy of the Quinn operation .  And I went to school with the ex pat who bought their insurance operation for £1 ( or was it one euro ).  Bad press himself in USA that executive cause he was paid 50 million a year for 4 years from 2006 to 2010 ( and his brother still back here has a vow of poverty ) . Google it . Liberty .

Sean Quinn was the richest man in Ireland by repute , how much was tied up with the banks known only to those in the epicentre of the operation . Proud his operation was country based , admired him for that , no need for much Dublin 4 involvement .  But I reckon that was where he met his Waterloo ( not road ) , led astray by the bankers / spivs/ business advisors / easy money greedy barstewards who hoodwinked most of corporate Ireland and the average Joe . But we all live or die by our choice of friends / acquaintances / financial advisors , you win some you lose some .

No truck with Anglo Irish myself , or with any bank re investment for that matter , although my mother lost a big chunk of her savings via AIB  , £12 to 6p in a couple of years last time I looked .  But a friend went into Anglo Irish in Belfast the day before their share price collapsed and resulting from his discussion ( not advice they would say , but we all know how that works ) he plonked £50K extra into what became worthless shares of theirs very quickly . Touting ? Nod and a wink ?

Suppporting a bank against market forces when you are laden with toxic debt is the road to nowhere . Sean Quinn bought into that scenario , Lord knows what spin / information / misinformation there was abroad at the time ( cue my  sensible friends experience ) , and it proved a ruinous spiral downwards . That he and family members were borrowing hugely to help prop up the Anglo Irish share price ( along with 11 others by reportage ) was OK in commercial risk terms , except for the fact that the organisation offering the ( probably illegal ) money was the bank itself . Big moral dilemma  that in my book , even if ownership of the bank changes subsequently .  Bank should have to stand over their own illegal part in any transactions  , illegally lent money should be voided , so there is a moral argument in Quinns case re that  , and the information regarding the banks assets / borrowings / debts has to be subject to the most rigorous independent forensic ( and trustworthy ) accounting report . No doubt an attempt to avoid that scrutiny will be made , but until  the skeletons are  ALL ( not just the Quinn ones ) uncovered any action should be left in abeyance .

Anyone whose financial empire was valued at 3.5 billion is bound to have a lot of irons in the fire , particularly if ( trusted ) family members are involved with a measure of independence and sensible "floor limits" like most commercial operations have . On that tack know of one corporate owner who was lunching in an hotel his corporation owned , but he was unaware of the ownership , so it does happen .   Situations like that are just not commonplace in the lives most of us lead .

The recent extra curricular activities of the Quinn family have been gracing the pages of most of the papers I would not give house room to over the last couple of months plus . Some sensible publications have also carried some less frenzied reporting . The foreign element of the activity surprised me , given the history of the family and their attachment to things Irish essentially , but logically Ireland was not the place to be trying to invest in from 2008 onwards at least , so maybe thats a bye ball intellectually .

The media love a story , and if the politicians are behaving themselves more or less there is a need for something to satisfy the public need for feeding frenzy . Given that the State and the bankers / property developers / greedy public all played a big part in the country's demise I can see where a certain attitude has instilled itself in the Quinn thoughts . Sean Quinn and co are guilty until proved innocent in my book , a twist on the norm , but everyone deserves their day in the sun , and until ALL the facts / actions / deals / secret stuff is washed in public there is a doubt in my mind regarding dismissal of the scapegoat allegation .  Somehow I doubt that happening given the nature of things south of Fermanagh .
By:
Tolmi
When: 30 Jul 12 10:19
It is normally quite rare that I find myself in agreement with Rocketfingers but seeing the picture of Colm O Rourke, Fr Brian D'arcy and Mickey Harte on the front page of this morning's Indo left me speechless.I think the Sean Quinn supporters seem not to understand is that if left unchecked Sean Quinn would still be in control of assets worth over a billion without repaying what he owes.In that event it would fall to the Irish taxpayer to pick up the tab.The Irish insurance payer is already paying a 2% levy to bail out his insurance company and will be doing so for the next 15 years.To publicly support someone who would siphon off assets of this value while leaving the ordinary Irish taxpayer on the hook for it is mindboggling.
By:
mrcombustible
When: 30 Jul 12 10:32
Only in Ireland could this happen.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 30 Jul 12 10:49
We might be unable to dispense justice in a timely manner.  The Russians, on the other hand, appear to have done a proper job on the Quinns.  If you lie down with dogs....
By:
RoyalAcademy
When: 30 Jul 12 11:29
Are suggesting Ozy that the Quinns are relying on the word of some unknown taxi driver to protect the future of their assets?

Would you do such a deal with the devil given that you have had probably four years of planning to evade the clutches of those bad bankers.

I suspect if someone searches hard enough they may well find doucuments signed by said mythical taxi driver reversing all previous transactions thus ensuring that the Quinns retain ownership of their "entitlements".

What does a cornered rat do?
By:
Kelly
When: 30 Jul 12 11:34
Aside from the Quinn debate , the people who have put the country in hock have so far largely  escaped public naming , shaming , and proper humiliation . The Quinn episode is a small percentage of the total debacle and I suspect that movement on the Anglo Irish people significantly only came after the Quinn people started to hit back .

The bankers involved in toxic operations , property developers ,  and dodgy deals/ decisions have cost the tax payer more than the Quinn operations .  Plus there has been relatively little action over daft political activity .  But then I suppose we invented brown envelopes etc . And Kew Tours .
By:
Ozymandius
When: 30 Jul 12 11:50
RA,

It wouldn't surprise me if they have made a b*llox of hiding at least some of their assets as suggested.  You have little or no recourse to law and order in Russia when things go bad.  Of course it could be a facade, I don't know.
By:
Kelly
When: 30 Jul 12 12:05
Squigs , like it or lump it , the Quinns are from Teemore , quintessentially ( no pun intended ) they ARE Teemore . Having lots of connections with Fermanagh as I have ( through family ) over a period spanning 40 years or more , and with strong connections to GAA inside and outside that county  , the "men from Teemore " had certain legendary ( almost ) status .  A tiny parish  population wise which is geographically in Northern Ireland , but culturally and aesthetically in Cavan punched way above their weight in business and sporting terms . And nobody got hurt locally . In fact prospered relatively .  Hence the remaining goodwill which apparently still exists in some quarters just north of Cavan .  Completley logical they should seek out the friendliest place on earth for themselves .

Guity until proven innocent I posted earlier . Sean Quinn reportedly played a lot of cards ( for fun ) with neighbours etc over the years .  Time that everybody from the very top , including deposed / resigned politicians , bankers / advisors to government / property developers plus plus , had their cards turned over so that we can identify and see the crooks and the bluffers and the scoundrels . Some Quinns may be in there , but time for others hands to be exposed too .

Until that happens and there is transparency in justice for all of the ordinary people of this island there are as yet unanswered issues . Not too hopeful myself that the total transparency will ever take place , given the essentially Irish capacity for ducking / diving/ talking ourselves out of a mess , but hope springs eternal .
By:
RoyalAcademy
When: 30 Jul 12 12:38
Kelly, watching recent interviews with the head honchos from NAMA it is obvious that vengeance is clearly off the table in respect of their public utterances. We can only hope that if assets have been transferred that they have the cojones to fight recalcitrant debtors while at same time paying them up to two hundred grand a year to help resolve the mess. Classic Irish paradox and one suspects that it will be a toning down of the former rather than a punishment of the remuneration side that will ultimately win through. (This, I suggest Ozymandius, is the classic case of dogs and fleas).

In a country where a legal system is slow to move (because our brave and thrusting lawyers are paid by the hour rather than the case) we are forced to sit and suffer one ignominy after another as the elite remain firmly in place.

However, we have to start somewhere and starting with one of the biggest fish will do for me. Charges laid against the anglo-three are also positive. But please bear in mind that even when the evidence is atacked against you you will probably still prosper a la O'Brien, Lowry and the failed bankers and regulators that set sail for retirement land on the good ship pay-off-and-pension.

You seem to be advocating that no-one escapes the net and I concur but its a naive hope. We can only indict for crimes not greed which is the root cause of our difficulties.

P.S. I find the rhetoric and semantics of those defending the Quinn asset-stripping breathtaking and from the Jim Corr school of conspiracy politics. Is there something in the (bottled) water up there?
By:
Kelly
When: 30 Jul 12 12:46
We all drink good all Ballygowan , Royal .  Maybe it suffers dilution on its journey from Newcastle West ( a nice place but worthy of a by - pass , and sometimes the petrol there is a decent price comparatively speaking ) .
By:
reb
When: 30 Jul 12 12:48
I can't help but think that if the bank formerly, and still popularily, known as "Anglo-Irish" had called itself "St Patrick's", then the reckless gambler and his family would have less support in the border area.
By:
Anaglogs Daughter
When: 30 Jul 12 12:51
Property developer Thomas McFeely has been adjudicated a bankrupt in Ireland.
By:
Kelly
When: 30 Jul 12 12:52
Comment about the 200 grand a year operation .  Heard that on some grapevine before it became public .  Head scratching , but maybe it can be justified ( lower level maybe ) as cheaper than civil servants ( with pensions etc ) . Irish solution certainly .  Deals abound I suspect in attempts to hoke out .  Glad I am not involved in that scene personally or family wise .  Thankful for small mercies .
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 30 Jul 12 12:53
Agree with Royal Academy but there is one anomaly,a bust bank Anglo Irish took over a profitable company and are now cleaning it out,I think tis that that is sticking in their craw.
Quinn can't get his head around the fact that he owes the money to the state,he is looking at it as his nemesis Anglo Irish bank.
By:
Kelly
When: 30 Jul 12 13:20
Not sure how Sean Quinn became a "reckless " gambler , reb .  Up to the Anglo Irish involvement his operation was fairly shrewd and he played essentially winning hands well ( borrowing the card playing scenario langauge ) . Made himself and connections well heeled  , along with employees who liked the security of a decent weekly wage without having to move far from home .

Got hooked into the world of high rollers , who always have the capacity to hoodwink the less questioning with their veneer of respectability .  Spivs mostly essentially , catch as catch can merchants , dressed up mainly in bankers clothes spouting derivitaves and high falutin terminology to cloak gambling  with other peoples money / apirations / greed the driving factors  . Buying debts also a factor , greed / profit driven , Gordon Gekko stuff .

Then it boils down to who you can believe  , trust , associate with .  Surprised that Sean Quinn bought into that world , no need for extra if have a good manufacturing set up , and the people involved would be alien to Quinns core values .  Must have been very good "salesmen " in their own terms .

The "plain people of Ireland " , myles etc , (and I would have classified Sean Quinn in that category from reportage of years ago ), would give these operators short shrift normally , but coming from the top ( politically among others ) there was a common greed in the vulgarity that was the Celtic Tiger .  Chickens invariably come home to roost , whether in Teemore or elsewhere ! 

Still like to see the majority of the cards turned over .  Guess that has resonance mainly north of the border , judging by people taking to the streets in support of extended justice for Quinn operation .  Justice for all has a nice resonance about it , even if its not going to happen as too many dirty secrets are out there to be faced up to .
By:
db1974
When: 30 Jul 12 13:28
You can't have "justice-for-all OR justice-for-none". Plenty of small businessmen have gone to the wall because they didn't have their assets in the wife's name or whatever like a lot of the bigger fish did. Just because Quinn is/was a bigger fish doesn't mean he shouldn't suffer because he didn't protect his assets properly.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 30 Jul 12 16:37
Good post RA @ 12.38.

Am very surprised at Michael O'Leary sending a letter of support that was read out at the rally.  Has anyone seen the wording?  I would like to think that it was a generic letter of personal support and not intended for public consumption.
By:
richters
When: 30 Jul 12 16:49
When will we likely see mr ahern in court facing charges in light of the mahon tribunal please?
By:
silvergreaser
When: 30 Jul 12 22:57
As someone said on the comments section of the indo "got to love these simple people, all they're missing is the lamps and pitchforks".

Virtually impossible to remove the tribal instinct from the masses, I suppose Lowry is still as popular as ever down North Tipperary way?.
By:
silvergreaser
When: 30 Jul 12 22:59
are!
By:
RoyalAcademy
When: 01 Aug 12 11:46
Fintan O'Toole is not everyone's cup of tea but he is a brilliant journalist. I think his synopsis on the thieving Quinns is as close to the "truth" as is possible in a world of feint and spin.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0731/1224321157051.html?via=mr

This comes with the most recent revelation that Quinn Insurance may cost every single policyholder in Ireland a 2% levy on all policies for the rest of our lives as the final loss may reach €1.5bn ("t'was acts of god and bad weather and the tsunami and the ash cloud and the orange parades and stupid english employees your honour")

How wonderful to see Sinn Fein on their usual opportunistic limbo dance in the matter.

Meanwhile the peasants and serfs of south Ulster await the latest pronunciation from Jim Corr as he peers into ash from his weed.

P.S. Irish journalism remains of a very high standard in spite of attempts to dumb down everything in Irish life. How newspapers will survive offering such high quality opinion pieces free is the industry's big question of the age.
By:
paddletoe
When: 01 Aug 12 12:01
The rich dont go broke like the rest of us. How can people support this family.

They got off lightly. Even if they were to pay back the half a billion they have tried to hide away they will still owe several billions more which will never be repaid.

Sean Quinn snr claimed in the high court in belfast he had £5,000 to his name.

The fact is they were only handed jail sentences for hiding away money. They owe so much money that they can never repay yet they want to keep a small fortune hidden away. The money they have hidden away belongs to the irish people. Its equivalent to robbing hundreds of pounds from each family in the country.
By:
paddletoe
When: 01 Aug 12 12:16
Lets call it what it is. State robbery.

The Quinns should be in jail until all the money they have hidden away is handed over. At which point they will still owe billions which will never be paid back.
By:
Kelly
When: 01 Aug 12 12:31
Whatever the views on the Quinns , there is still an unanswered question as to the part Anglo Irish played in the activity . If their loans ( to prop up their share price ) to Quinns were illegal or tainted legally , even the fact that the State now owns Anglo Irish should not stand in the way of natural justice in legal terms .

If the State bought over Anglo Irish , they must have been in posession of ALL the facts , and if that included illegal activity thats tough .  Someone had the call on that , if they got it wrong its just another nail in the coffin in the debacle that unfolded . If the State knew of anything approaching illegal lending then the bailout from the State has to face up to that .

I suspect this episode will run for some time to come , but wont do the economy any good .

But the slate has to be wiped clean , and some of those south Ulster people referenced previously are tough hombres . They wont go away you know  , and words dont hurt them . Not a lot of time for most of them myself , too much siege mentality for modernity in my book , but sometimes personal views do not translate into legalities to everyones satisfaction .
By:
paddletoe
When: 01 Aug 12 13:07
Was it not right that when the share prices kept going down the Quinns threatened the bank to put all their shares on the market if they were not given more loans. This does not seem the actions of a family being led by the bank. They were initiating things that led to the eventual collapse by chasing lose after lose. He could have pulled out an an early stage and still had more than enough money to cover the loses and keep their other businesses solvent.
By:
paddletoe
When: 01 Aug 12 13:19
The actions of people like the Quinn family ( and others too ) has directly led to tens of thousands of ordinary people losing their jobs and many others having to leave the country. The greed and arrogance of this family is obscene. Yes, there are others who need to be held accountable but lets deal with this case first.

Sinn Fein want a socialist republic but i have not heard a word from them.
By:
GANT007
When: 01 Aug 12 13:24
False accounts, dodgy accounting and Irish life and permanent transferring a few billion overnight to tidy the balance sheet........the whole thing is rotten to the core and there are so many blanks.........The quinn companies were generating profits in or around 400/500 million a year and alledged to be worth €4 billion.......Anglo took this against monies owed........Did Anglo fail the tax payer again not disposing of these assets to cover the loans........why were the assets in eastern europe not pounced on earlier by Anglo........What about the other lads in the golden circle......they owed €180 billion combined........One of them and his sons believe me sleeps very well at night.
By:
Tolmi
When: 01 Aug 12 14:04
Think you will find that the profits in the jewel in the crown Quinn Direct were fictitious and should in fact have been showing a loss making situation if contingencies were provided for.If you add in the reality that the other businesses were mainly in the building supplies/hotel sector I think you will find that the supposed €3 billion valuation was pie in the sky based on "Celtic Tiger" prices.

Unfortunately for us taxpayers the post tiger valuation was a fraction of this.
By:
lustrumm
When: 01 Aug 12 16:19
Exactly Tolmi and in all the spin this important fact gets forgotten. The insurance business model they had was false but it was always going to take 10 years or so to flush out.

Ask anyone that is involved in the Courts service (including Barristers, Solicitors etc..) and they will tell you that the Quinns are and always were very shady people to deal with.

Also look at the figures involved. This is not Millions but Billions.
By:
paddletoe
When: 01 Aug 12 16:32
Anyone who went to the rally to support the Quinns should be ashamed of themselves. They have stolen money from the irish people and i would have hoped that the Quinn supporters at the rally would have the moral compass to know that you dont rob people worse off than yourself. Thats what the Quinn family are doing.
By:
richters
When: 01 Aug 12 16:41
dont be silly paddletoe......what about the members of the golden circle/galway tent brigade/bertie ahern.....did they not steal money from the people.......it seems only a certain element of irish society is guilty while the rest seem to be convenientally forgot about......brush it under the carpet and itl go away in time.....its the same west brits surfacing on this thread that usually do.....
By:
Vubiant
When: 01 Aug 12 16:48
Bingo - messers Gant and richters playing the 'whataboutery ' game . Their posts actually contain the magic phrase 'What about' Laugh
No surprise since expertise in same has been built up over many years of evasiveness and moral obfuscation.
By:
RoyalAcademy
When: 01 Aug 12 16:51
I have nothing against the people of ulster but I'm rabidly anti-SF simply because I don't trust them. They would resort to type in a blink. (Big powerplay in the offing between the former MP and the dissidents)

I am from Tipperary and I'm equally ashamed and appalled at the similar gombeen support that the bandit Lowry continues to get from my near-neighbours. We ourselves have a major democratic deficit in the south of the county with Labour's unelectable Landy in the Seanad and the poll-failing Prendergast now on the Euro gravy train (her eminent qualifications demand that she walks the European halls of power with gravitas). Names like Mattie McGrath, Tom Hayes and Seamus Healy trip off the tongue and are proof-positive that we have dozens of unnecessary TD's as all they do is the job of local county councillors when they're not in the cabinet or close to power. (Threatened hospital closures have kept many an elected representative clothed in a semblance of public service for decades-agitation for its own sake in the face of logic)
By:
paddletoe
When: 01 Aug 12 16:51
I agree lots of others people did wrong things and hopefully they will be held accountable for their actions too. But the fact others were at it is no defence for the Quinns. We are talking about the Quinns here. Lets deal with them now and then move onto the rest of them.
By:
paddletoe
When: 01 Aug 12 16:55
I have voted sinn fein all of my life but i wont be voting for them at the next election because of their silence over this.
By:
Ozymandius
When: 01 Aug 12 17:04
'whataboutery ' game Laugh

Richters, the West Brits on here have you and your ilk on the run!

Vubiant reminds me of a Resident Magistrate looking down dismissively at you in the dock and pronouncing over his half rim spectacles; 'No surprise since expertise in same has been built up over many years of evasiveness and moral obfuscation' Laugh

If any man can sort out South Riding then it is surely Royal Academy Laugh
By:
lustrumm
When: 01 Aug 12 21:12
one VB tonight and he is trying a different tack now in admitting he was wrong and pleading not to criminalise his kids. He has a neck like a jockeys Bol lix
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