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Start Of The Jumps

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By:
sageform
When: 18 Dec 24 15:35
Harry is jocked up for 3 rides on Friday.
By:
differentdrum
When: 18 Dec 24 15:57
Message to Catt - the laughable thing is not when they disqualify a horse, it's the fact you are still happy to see horses being hit with a whip. Get rid of it, you get of the daft rules, and there is no need for this counting and disqualification nonsense.

Pleased to see Bloomsbury get the last winner. Nice bit of scope, but stable form put me off. They haven't had too many jumps, but they did breed some nice sorts out of Loving Around that didn't go on.

That sale I mentioned didn't realise much money. Not too sure about one of the buyers - a Mr S Claus?
By:
sageform
When: 18 Dec 24 19:34
Although I did back Capt. Bellamy, I know it would not have won without at least some whip strokes but the last 3 probably slowed it down. This is Lorcan Williams's second time over 10 so he really needs a long ban to teach him some self control. To hit a big backward horse that many times can only harm both his and the horses career.
By:
brandyontherocks
When: 18 Dec 24 20:11
What are people's thoughts on the whip?
Do you think it makes a horse runs faster than a jockey pushing the horse out?
By:
cobs101
When: 18 Dec 24 20:20
The industry should act now and ban it. If not, it will be taken out of their hands through public opinion. Occasionally the whip gets a reaction from a horse after the first 1-2 hits, after that, no. There will be no whips used on animals for public entertainment within 5-10 years.Cool
By:
sageform
When: 18 Dec 24 21:11
So long as nobody has a whip then we will see different results in that horses that might respond to a whip (and there are certainly some) will be very hard to win with while those that will always do their best without too much encouragement will be more successful. Horses that run all over the track will cause chaos and may not be allowed to race.
By:
differentdrum
When: 19 Dec 24 11:25
The whip shouldn't be about whether it makes a horse run faster. It just isn't right to be hitting a horse at all for entertainment. That should be so obvious, but racing continues in the dark ages to appease jocks who are simply too lazy to ride without hitting animals. We haven't even got to the stage of having a proper trial with jocks simply carrying whips. The only question to ask is whether you can have racing without hitting horses and of course the answer is yes. I would have thought it would be good thing if more races are won by horses who are not being effectively forced to win. As regards wayward horses we have seen many horses hang across the track with the rail being a more effective straightener than the whip. 

No bets today. I did think about Into The Park at Exeter, but not sure he is a strong stayer over this trip, and on a stiff track. He is now plenty short enough with the doubts. The novice hurdle is worth a look at Ffos Las, but no strong view. Gillespie has much the best pedigree in the bumper, but if he is much good, why has he ended up with the Owners Group, rather than the usual suspects? Surely they would have got first refusal on a good one? 

Next few days look tricky. It's hard to win a few quid, don't make it too easy to give it back. The bookmakers want you to bet every day.
By:
nocturnal
When: 19 Dec 24 11:35
All good Whippin ... messaged you on here.

Spot on DD ... I thought there had been restrictions on conditional races at some point,possibly on the flat?
By:
differentdrum
When: 19 Dec 24 11:56
They have had 'hands and heels' races for ages, but it has never gone beyond that. When I suggest a trial the idea would be that it would be for all races, and last at least a month.
By:
paulo47
When: 19 Dec 24 12:09
Totally agree DD and it will happen eventually .
By:
brandyontherocks
When: 19 Dec 24 14:09
My thoughts exactly.
No need for a whip in racing.
A jockey should be competent enough in the saddle using his legs arm to encourage a horse forward.
By:
in hell
When: 19 Dec 24 15:26
Regards the whip, great example why they shouldn't have a whip, Sean Bowen smacked Hurricane Harvey twice when it no chance of winning after the last. Just a habit.
How anyone can justify the use of it is beyond me.
By:
differentdrum
When: 19 Dec 24 17:06
Why is it that people who follow racing can accept this, but those who make the rules can't, or if they do, are unwilling to do anything about it?

Into The Park didn't see it out, so money saved there. Roscahill, a very splayed action behind, but stopping him at the moment. Another race that Jones looked like winning. Even at his best he seems to produce an awful lot of seconds, particularly over hurdles. Gillespie looked a little raw, but saw his race out well. He might have a future, but I doubt it was much of a race. I backed Karuma Grey when he was with the Holden's, but I left him alone when he won at a big price next time, and he has popped up again today. Won nicely for a 100/1 shot. I did flag up that it seemed strange to be running Not Long Left on this sort of ground.

Not much to go at tomorrow, and it could easily be another no bet day. I don't really enjoy betting at Ascot. In general there's too much bookmaker fodder tomorrow, and the condition races are pretty low grade. The bumper might be the exception. I still haven't quite recovered from Blues Singer not winning. That was a nothing race, and it would be ridiculous if he won a much better one tomorrow. The one I like best at double figures is Tennessee Tango. The form is relatively untested, but he travelled like much the best horse on debut. The likely softer ground might be a negative. Had there been four places I might have been more inclined to have a go.

Caught the end of a Dan Barber interview on Racing TV. He seemed to be bigging up the Arkle, and praising the removal of the Turners. Surely you can't judge the merit of a race on a bookmakers market which is what he appeared to be doing? It might look very different in a few weeks time. I have already discussed Ballyburn so won't repeat those arguments again, but would it be the biggest surprise if Ballyburn and Sir Gino didn't go anywhere near the race? Then you are left with Majborough v L'Eau Du Sud, and the supporting cast. That wouldn't exactly have me on the edge of my seat, even though I think Majborough might be very good. As regards the removal of the Turners 'forcing' owners to run elsewhere at the Festival that just isn't true. An owner isn't forced to do anything, and it could just as well remove very good horses from the Festival. If I was an owner I would always want my horse running over a trip that suited him/her best, not circumstance.
By:
differentdrum
When: 19 Dec 24 17:08
^ but not stopping him at the moment
By:
sageform
When: 19 Dec 24 20:05
For several years we have been told that Cheltenham is the pinnacle of the sport etc. More recently some trainers are planning a campaign for the right horses to be aimed at Aintree instead or in Ireland waiting for Punchestown. The very best will still run in March but field sizes in the Grade 1 races have decreased a lot as trainers decline to see their best horses beaten and perhaps mentally scarred. Just look at horses whose best ever rating is achieved when trained for a festival race and never get there again. Bravemansgame has been a shadow since finishing a brave second in the Gold Cup but there are dozens of others. Horses that can come back for 2 or more years and win again are very special.
By:
sageform
When: 20 Dec 24 08:41
Cobden back today so I hope he is in better shape that last weekend. Irish Hill is up against it in the first handicap hurdle under Jay Tidball but Belliano was only beaten by The New Lion on debut so it will take a very good horse to beat him. Fasol is still a maiden over hurdles so winning a valuable handicap is a big ask but he may have been laid out for it. At Uttoxeter Heros de Romay was fourth in a hot race having lost a shoe so he could be competitive in the 1.30.
By:
in hell
When: 20 Dec 24 12:18
I thought English Willow shaped really well on her race course debut at Chepstow in an open hurdle, must go close here
By:
sageform
When: 20 Dec 24 12:53
Looked the winner at the last but well beaten. Bailey has run some decent novices this month.
By:
sageform
When: 20 Dec 24 13:37
Belliano didn't exactly trot up but it won. Irish Hill ran another honest race to be third. Heros de Romay very poor.
By:
differentdrum
When: 20 Dec 24 13:41
Is there a day when Chapman doesn't talk through his bottom? More concerned with sucking up to owners and trainers than telling the truth. Belliano was about as unimpressive as you could get in a weak race. Country Park looked to be travelling all over him when coming down.

Tennessee Tango has been very weak. I can only think it's the ground as he looks a lovely prospect. Probably a mistake, but I couldn't resist an each-way dabble at 20/1, boosted from 18/1. If King's horse wins the Stewards should give him a little tap on the shoulder. It shouldn't be finishing halfway on what it did last time.
By:
sageform
When: 20 Dec 24 14:08
And now Matt tells us the Stewards called an enquiry because they were bored. Once they showed the head on it was clear that interference took place but as I had a small back and lay Here Comes Georgie, I hope the result stands. How could a 3 time winner drift to 40/1 in a 4 runner handicap!! It was briefly off the bridle but I was always hopeful.
By:
sageform
When: 20 Dec 24 14:16
The trainer in form now is Henry Daly I didn't even look at that Uttoxeter race but Pearl Island fought back to win at 14/1. That makes 7 wins from 22 runners in 14 days. Emma Hamilton left today.
By:
sageform
When: 20 Dec 24 14:50
And she wins! Alice Stevens stuck to the inner and kept her jumping. 8 from 23! You form guys can do your studying but I love a trainer in form. Just Moonlit Potter tomorrow and it has a decent chance.
By:
differentdrum
When: 20 Dec 24 14:56
They don't all win though. It's fine just talking about the one's that do. I would far sooner pick a horse, and then if the trainer is in form then it's a plus. That horse only won because of an ill-judged ride from Bowen. He is running all over the winner going through the line. It wasn't a nasty fall either, he virtually jumped off. Let's see how he gets on with Strong Leader, one that really matters.
By:
Whippin Piccadilly
When: 20 Dec 24 15:07
There's aftertimers and then there's Sageform! No mention of Here Comes Georgie pre race and no mention of backing EH pre race.
By:
differentdrum
When: 20 Dec 24 15:22
Oh dear, Ben Jones, snatches defeat from the jaws of victory again. I think the only mistake the horse made. It's happening too often. Wouldn't be the biggest call that Woods gets the job back again.

I briefly praised O'Neill, but he hasn't improved. He just isn't barve enough at the fences. Just happy to balloon the fences as if he was show jumping. You can't keep blaming the horses.
By:
1st time poster
When: 20 Dec 24 15:25
after last few weeks BEN JONES wouldn't get a game in goal for spurs Laugh
By:
sageform
When: 20 Dec 24 15:30
This is a forum to review NH races with a few tips thrown in Whipping. I am happy to mention my winners and losers, mostly the latter. as for Here Comes Georgie, I only backed it at half way so a bit late to tip it! Just thought it was a daft price and took a small slice of just 5 points as I often do.
dd of course they don't all win but as you say it is a good way to confirm your view of a horse if the yard form is good. And I am convinced that trainers work horses in batches and the ones ready to win will have worked together. That may not make them go faster but at least you know they are healthy. I would not put a free bet on a Harry Fry horse until they show some decent form-and I would not include an odds on winner which proves nothing. Just look at the RP listing of a trainers runners and see the +and - figure beside each of them which indicates whether a horse has run better or worse that its rating. That is my main criterion of stable form.
By:
sageform
When: 20 Dec 24 15:48
Got that bumper wrong but only just. Doctor Blue win and place at 12 and 3 and put lays at 8 and 2 but neither taken despite only losing third on the post. So a good run lost me 2 bets! That is how it goes.
By:
differentdrum
When: 20 Dec 24 15:52
Tennessee Tango travelled okay, but once the pace picked up was essentially running up and down on spot. The ground was pretty churned up, and I doubt we will see him running on that surface again. I certainly hope not, and I wouldn't be in a rush to give up on him.

The winner bolted up, but is essentially flat bred. Not for me, and come March, I would be surprised if that's a Festival winner.
By:
Whippin Piccadilly
When: 20 Dec 24 16:12
You should play the game as it suits you, Sage. But it would have been interesting to get you pre race opinion on HCG before that race. No worries
By:
differentdrum
When: 20 Dec 24 16:16
Just the three bets tomorrow.

I don't like backing shorties, but Big Ginge should have too much for the disappointing Pauling runner in the Hereford opener. He is getting 14lbs, and I would have fancied him off levels. Point and fire. Kelya Wood did me a favour last time, and she gets a chance to prove that she didn't just nick that race. She's up in trip, but she finished strongly last time, and she should again be difficult to peg back. The other one is a bit more speculative, Hartur D'Arc at Ascot. He didn't look suited to Cheltenham, but was making some ground when stopped in his tracks. Up in trip, and softer ground should help. The Ascot fences can be very tricky, and the key is probably Stone-Walsh getting him into a nice early jumping rhythm. We don't want a non-runner. Taken him each-way at 20/1 as I think he has a better chance than those odds suggest.
By:
1st time poster
When: 20 Dec 24 16:44
sportinlife value + has put  HARTUR D{ARC at 18,s
By:
saxon farm
When: 21 Dec 24 00:07
This is a lovely thread.
differentdrum is a belligerent chap who has untold knowledge of the history of the game and must love it really!
sageform, for different reasons, 80 years old I believe also articulates  with great aplomb, more from the heart.
Both good chaps for me.

Yes lads, it’s a seriious business, but surely not to be taken TOO SERIOUSLY!
By:
sageform
When: 21 Dec 24 10:20
I freely admit that I had not paid any attention to either of the 4 runner chases at Ascot yesterday pre race but as I was watching, I had a small bet in running on a horse which had 3 recent wins and this was a HANDICAP which seemed to have escaped the notice of market makers. If you had asked me my opinion pre race I would have said "no idea"
By:
differentdrum
When: 21 Dec 24 10:56
Thanks saxon, I think. In reality I am a lot softer than you may think. As regards racing is there any point in wishy washy opinions? I love the history of the sport, but I also love the on-going battle with the bookmakers. Frustrating at times, but I haven't quite thrown in the towel yet. I don't have a bank such that I can do 'fun' bets so I give them all as much attention as I can.

I ended up cashing out my Big Ginge bet. Had second thoughts, but since then he has been supported into odds on. As I said I don't like short one's. Have added Menas Miracle with the extra places in the Thurles bumper. She only won her point a couple of weeks ago so at least she should be fit. She gallpoed her rivals into the ground under today's jock. Clearly the market doesn't think much of the form. The favourite, Blue Velvet, is from the family of Morley Street and Granville Again. She was three lengths clear, and going further clear when departing at the last in her point. She was subsequently sold for 170,000. The form of the race is poor. It doesn't look as if this race will take that much winning.

The Hereford bumper doesn't look much on paper either. Not surprised that Docteur Romeo has attracted a little bit of support from 33/1. The stable produces the occasional winner in this sphere.
By:
cobs101
When: 21 Dec 24 10:56
Thought Netywell (1.30 Hay) should be fav here. Conditions are perfect and he has some terrific times over CD in sofy/heavy ground. The Venetia trained Intimate is favourite but didn't jump too well on chase debut at Sandown. It's a  a tad too short for me because of the stable factor, so Netywell win and 3places. GL Cooltoday
By:
differentdrum
When: 21 Dec 24 12:32
Managed to swerve one with Big Ginge. As I know it doesn't always go your way. He was just too wild, and it exposed the limitations of the jock. I doubt the winner had to improve to win.
By:
sageform
When: 21 Dec 24 12:59
I suppose that after 70 years as a keen follower, I tend to follow colours, owners and, trainers who I know or just had a soft spot for. We were in the Beaufort country as children so I can remember the "names" like Pat Tollitt, Richard Shepherd, Bill Bush, Tim Holland Martin and Gregory Phillips who rode his own horse Pure Lady to many wins with only one arm. And under rules I grew up at pony club with John Haine, Andy Turnell and Richard Smith (champion amateur under rules) as well as Olympic riders like Mike, Jenny and Jane Bullen and Mark Phillips among others. That does not make me "posh" as anyone who had a pony was welcome to attend and the area was an equestrian centre back then. Badminton and later Gatcombe were just down the road so I went on my bike, tucked it into some trees and walked in for free. I don't have any strong views today but hope that Trelawne can win again.
By:
differentdrum
When: 21 Dec 24 13:19
Bit disappointing from Kelya Wood. Watching it I thought he wasn't going fast enough, but she has very quickly fallen in a hole in the straight. Maybe conditions are not so good for front runners today? Winner is clumsy, but just keeps galloping, and will probably be better over further.

Just reading that Ballyburn has been given a two-mile entry at Kempton. Lot of difference between an entry and running, but it looks an idiotic entry to me, totally unsuited to the horses's best interests. It almost needs Sir Gino to run all over him to teach Mullins a lesson, otherwise it looks like we are going to get another dose of silly buggers surrounding this horse. Perhaps the trainer can tell everyone which was the last Gold Cup winner who would have won an Arkle? For me Mullins is the only leading trainer who has this seemingly scattergun approach. Why is it so difficult for him to just run a staying horse over a staying trip? It seems owners are just too weak to question him. He is the only reason why Ballyburn has a defeat on his record, and it now looks as if he is trying his best to make it two.
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