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Novice Hurdles/Bumpers 23/24

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Replies: 764
By:
Whippin Piccadilly
When: 24 Nov 23 17:02
I posted on here about Inthewaterside needing every yard of the 2m4f trip at Aintree LTO. So I agree, a very strange decision
By:
differentdrum
When: 24 Nov 23 18:45
Not too much to get excited about in the novice hurdle or bumper department tomorrow.

At Punchestown it's about the two novice chases. Watching Gaelic Warrior over hurdles I never felt there's the next great chaser, so quite happy just to watch him tomorrow. Bit biased, but I maintain they could easily have waited a year. At first glance on hurdling form An Epic Song looks the overpriced one, but presumably, the distance is too short, and/or he is unlikely to be primed for his first run of the season. The ground is presumably thought to be the issue for Flooring Porter, otherwise he would surely be favourite? He also hasn't run right handed for quite a while.

Obviously, Ben Pauling seems to think Tellherthename is a two miler. Sharp track, and good ground tomorrow. No doubt it will be point and fire stuff, but had there been anything of note in opposition, I might have taken him on. If Beachcomber reproduced his bumper win over hurdles he would surely have a chance in a dire looking maiden hurdle. Transmission has by far the best piece of hurdling form, but subsequently let me down on several occasions. First run for Mulholland (same owner), but thus far you wouldn't trust him.

At Haydock, we get the chance to see the infamous Primoz head carriage again. The sharp track will suit, but hopefully, this time he won't be gifted an easy lead. Assuming he isn't I would expect Bowenspark to be too good for him. I would have both in preference to Kamsinsas. Yes, he was second to Lookaway, but the third has since been turned over at 1/6. I had a little look at Howlingmadmurdock and Gowel Road in the staying handicap hurdle. The former appears completely unfancied, and there are few positives in Gowel Road's pedigree to suggest he will stay this trip. Already given my views on Corach Rambler elsewhere. I think he is banker tailed off material.

The staying Ascot novice is probably a watch race. Saladins Son shaped well his hurdling debut, but a fair chance he might find one or two of these a bit too quick. Leader In The Park looks the part, but his point rather fell apart with several late departures. He bids to do better their other big money purchase, Flash In The Park. If this one is seriously fancied you have to query (assuming he had the choice) why Woods has gone to Huntingdon. The closing bumper looks a smash up between Nicholls and Henderson, with the Nicholls runner having the much better pedigree. The market seems to have seen Blue Bresil/Buckley, and thought we have the next Constitution Hill.

I should have mentioned Supreme Gift earlier. I did flag on here what a dire effort Jacob had made of his chasing debut. Obviously, Deutsch much better today. Don't think Jacob has ridden for the yard since.
By:
jimnast
When: 24 Nov 23 19:37
Having watched all 4 of bowensparks bumper runs I didn’t like the way he carried his head,to be fair he did win two of them he wasn’t tested at Stratford in that department as it was a pretty weak race ,I thought tomorrows race was quite a strong race as it should be for a grade 2 .
By:
differentdrum
When: 24 Nov 23 20:59
It's going to be some race if both Bowenspark and Primoz have dodgy head carriages. After you, no thanks. If you have doubts about Bowenspark who wins? At the moment the other two appear stronger in the market, but even the 5/2 Bowenspark has been trimmed.
By:
Tiger Tiger
When: 24 Nov 23 21:03
I like the Novice Hurdle at Haydock tomorrow, looks a good event. Into the notebook went Primoz after his debut win at Ayr, hardly off the bridle, stable is in good form with three wins and a second from her last six runners, good compeition though in Bownes Park and Camsinas. Russell's chase debutant might give Gaillard De Mensill a good run for his money in receipt of lots of weight in the Graduation Chase.
By:
differentdrum
When: 24 Nov 23 21:19
There are a couple of doubts about Apple Away. Will she take to fences (her pedigree is pretty ordinary) and assuming she does how will she cope with this trip on a sharp track like Haydock? At this time last year she couldn't beat Sacre Coeur getting weight. That said I have never really had that much confidence in Gaillard Du Mesnil, and arguably his best performances have been over further as well. You would think that conditions probably favour Grey Dawning.
By:
Tiger Tiger
When: 24 Nov 23 21:45
Grey Dawning fell in the race won by Apple Away at Aintree, certainly didnt look a threat at that stage, different ball game tomorrow of course over the bigger obstacles.
By:
jimnast
When: 25 Nov 23 06:27
If I had to have a bet it would be kamsinas but as tiger says it looks a good event although historically it doesn’t really throw up anything above average I didn’t rule out making headway either it could be said the front 4 would all be suited by a stiffer test.
By:
jimnast
When: 25 Nov 23 07:05
Surprised no Nichols runner in the graduation chase he has won 4 of the last 6 runnings ,a combination of trip ,race fitness and weight terms I would be with grey dawning ,another very interesting race on a day where there won’t be many betting opportunities but loads of interest both sides of the sea.
By:
sageform
When: 25 Nov 23 09:04
I was really impressed by Primoz as well and he is my choice although Bowenspark was equally impressive in winning his debut hurdle run. The winner today is likely to be a leading contender for the top novice hurdles.
Farnoge is my choice at Ascot and Paul Nicholls will be smarting a bit about Angela Yeomans having a horse with Nicky.
By:
paulo47
When: 25 Nov 23 09:13
I thought Kamsinas did really well considering the barging match lto .
By:
paulo47
When: 25 Nov 23 09:18
Howling would have preferred the rain but they are hopeful and interested to see how he runs on this surface .
By:
jimnast
When: 25 Nov 23 09:27
It will be a first sageform if this race produces a leading contender for the top novice hurdles,it has thrown up a winner of the Newbury handicap formerly the Schweppes
By:
differentdrum
When: 25 Nov 23 10:19
Several I have mentioned yet again appear strong in the market. As this time I have left most of them alone will the results be any different?
By:
sageform
When: 25 Nov 23 10:56
I don't expect them to beat Mullins, Elliott and Henderson in the Supreme but plenty of other decent 2 mile novice races between now and then.
By:
sageform
When: 25 Nov 23 12:11
neither of the ones I expected ran well at all but Kamsinas won nicely and the second was miles ahead of the rest.
By:
sageform
When: 25 Nov 23 13:04
Farnoge unwanted in the market so I had to help out the layers by backing him twice. Incredible for a horse that made all to drift from 7/4 this morning, 5/1 at the off and to 8/1 at half way!!! Trotted up really and only does as much as he is asked.
By:
MJK
When: 25 Nov 23 13:11
Had Farnoge in my placepot but thought a better ride and  the second would've won
By:
sageform
When: 25 Nov 23 13:17
Matter of opinions but to my eye, Farnoge was always just dossing along while the others were appearing to be going better. The favourite looked like it had just come in from grass!
By:
differentdrum
When: 25 Nov 23 17:20
Drastic improvement today, almost broke even.

I liked Mighty Bandit in the Puchestown opener. Now best priced 16/1 for the Triumph. He looked a bit more than just a juvenile hurdler, but the same could easily have been said about Blood Destiny last season, and that ended in tears. I found plenty of the rest of the card underwhelming to say the least. Gaelic Warrior's novice chase was a complete farce, not a race at all, just a series of schooling sessions. The winner was nothing like as convincing as Klassical Dream, and you would have liked to have seen something at least try to get upsides and unsettle him. I can't see any reason why you would want to go up in trip with him. Irrespective of whether he was fit, An Epic Song lost 1-2 lengths jumping left at every fence, and was never competitive. Surely the trainer has an inkling that is going to happen? Had it not been for the loose horse I think Flooring Porter would have won the Grade 2. His jumping was good and straight before the problems started. The 20/1 for the Brown Advisory looks reasonable to me. We then got the first episode of State Man beats opposition we know he can beat.

Tellherthename duly bolted up, but against that level of opposition it was very hard to tell what he actually achieved. The second favourite was the one that was too slow, couldn't jump, and was never at the races. With the exception of a slight panic at the last McLernon gave Beachcomber (8/1-9/4) a nice front running ride in what was a dire race.

The Bowenspark and Primoz bubbles were well and truly burst in the Haydock opener. Bowenspark had been smashed from 5/2-1/1, but the writing was on wall very early with the horse jumping slowly, and trapped on the rail. I wouldn't make too many excuses, but Patrick is very much a confidence jock, and he looks short in that department at the moment. If I was Daly I would be trying to get hold of Deutsch a bit more. As for the horse up in trip, and softer ground to try and cover up his jumping, but unless he gets that sorted the future doesn't look too bright. Once taken on Primoz stopped very quickly. Surely the Stewards should have asked a question? Grey Dawning did prove the best of the three, and had the race won before turning in. Dixon said before the race that the drop in trip would be no issue for Apple Away. Does he look at the form? Gowel Road didn't quite get home, not helped by his usual bungles. I think Sheppard had a tactical nightmare on Howlingmadmurdock and should have finished very close to the five. Another course specialist takes the Betfair where to varying degrees everything behind disappointed. I haven't heard the fallout for Corach Rambler, but he was never really competitive. It wouldn't have been quite so bad had he at least closed down the second, but it was always likely to be a fruitless exercise.

It was Nicholls/Cobden day at Ascot. Nicholls will be pleased that a few more people may have swallowed his made up explanation about Cobden not riding Bravemansgame. Cobden was able to dictate a dawdle on Farnoge who looks very straightforward. When will these jocks learn? Leader In The Park ran well, but surely would have benefitted from a stiffer test. I expected Saladins Son to be outpaced, but not quite that badly. Regents Stroll (5/2-7/4) was another ridden forward, and he showed a good attitude to take the bumper.

I thought there would be much talk about why Shishkin hadn't started, but no let's all talk about the removal of some sort of archaic starting aid instead. Surely that couldn't be because it is easier to upset the BHA than Nicky Henderson?
By:
sageform
When: 25 Nov 23 17:31
Nicholls was totally vindicated in my eyes. Both Pic Dory and Blueking Doreaux benefitted from the Cobden skill and Farnoge will have learned a lot although anyone could have won on him. I didn't see the bumper so can't comment. Over £100k for the team at Ascot.  Meanwhile a tired and clearly out of sorts Bravemansgame struggled round in second place for a fourth consecutive defeat as I thought would happen. Where would you have sent your best jockey?
By:
differentdrum
When: 25 Nov 23 18:32
If you want to believe that, fine.

I suspect the actual explanation was very close to one I speculated on earlier. Cobden had already committed to Ascot (effectively jocked up) and then Bravemansgame was added to Haydock as an afterthought. Nicholls/Cobden could not then upset their leading owner. Had he gone through the card, or indeed, not ridden any winners, it wouldn't have made Nicholls statement any more believable.

Going back to today's racing I should have highlighted the ride on Crambo. Idiotic, but that's the kind of tactics O'Brien seems to like.

Not much else besides the Grade 1 at Punchestown tomorrow. I hope Lucid Dreams can create an upset in the Grade 2. State Man's half brother will be expected to make a winning bumper debut. Will keep an eye on An Peann Dearg at Cork. He would probably have won his point, but returns after a long absence for an out of form yard. Little Miss Dante impressed at Ayr and might well be able to concede the penalty in the mares' novice at Uttoxeter.
By:
differentdrum
When: 26 Nov 23 09:53
Although I wouldn't expect Galopin Des Champs to lose today it is perhaps worth considering that those who completed the Gold Cup have had 15 subsequent runs, and Royale Pagaille has been the only winner. That coming in a race where it was almost impossible for one of them not to win. Was the race not that good, or has it simply taken it's toll?
By:
saxon farm
When: 26 Nov 23 11:16
I’ve chucked a few quid at Blue Lord ew & without fav.
Great record fresh and trip may be sharp enough for Galopin Des Champs.
By:
sageform
When: 26 Nov 23 11:56
dd as I have posted on the Cheltenham festival forum, only Minella Indo and Hewick had won before Royal Pagaille from the 2023 Gold Cup field and they only won relatively minor races. I can't believe it was a poor Gold cup. More likely it pulled the guts out of many of them. Worth bearing in mind that A Plus Tard who won well in March 2022 has not won since then. The reason why trainers don't run them much is that very few horses will come back from that sort of hard race.
By:
differentdrum
When: 26 Nov 23 12:15
Or the breed in general has become weaker? There are too many opportunities to avoid real competition, and when it does occasionally happen many can't take it.

Go back 50 years and (very good) horses used to run much more often, on ground that would now be considered unfit, and even in handicaps.

Going back to Shishkin if he doesn't want to race, just retire him. No horse should need to be effectively frightened into taking part.
By:
sageform
When: 26 Nov 23 12:49
Could be. They don't go hunting once a week for a start. The big problem I suppose is that all of the sires have been flat horses. The days of Vulgan are a distant memory. The mare lines help but that will be slowly moving towards speed rather than strength and stamina.
By:
differentdrum
When: 26 Nov 23 12:53
Little Miss Dante smashed up from 9/4 last night. Seems to have a bit of scope, and a good attitude. She could be quite useful. The bare form of today's race probably needs chalking up as the second got an easy lead, and the short run in would not have helped the winner.

Strange ride on Tullyhill. Jumping was poor, but the horse always looked as if it wanted to go forward. The winner looked like a horse who so far been an under achiever. He had chased up Willmount in his point. Plenty of promise from An Peann Dearg. Assuming the run brings him on he should be up to winning a novice hurdle before making a chaser.
By:
sageform
When: 26 Nov 23 14:03
Gutted to see Lucid Dreams get so close after a moderate ride. He hardly met any of the fences on a stride and made a mistake at the last before being beaten a head. Meanwhile the Elliott/Mullins monopoly of the Graded races continues.
By:
differentdrum
When: 26 Nov 23 14:57
I wouldn't be too hard on an inexperienced jock (who has done well on the horse), but he should have been a fraction closer to the lead. The real issue is the horse's technique which is too close to that of a hurdler.

Gold Cup now shaping up into a real bun fight. I know he got away with it last year, but since they knocked the exuberance out of him, Galopin Des Champs doesn't seem to be able to make any ground with his jumping. That is going to be a bigger problem over a shorter trip as it was today. A good, competitive race, despite 5/6 from one yard.
By:
differentdrum
When: 26 Nov 23 16:06
Halka Du Tabert won nicely at Cork, jumping better as the race progressed, unlike many of those behind. Not sure where she will aim as similarly to the hurdlers there isn't an obvious programme for the fairer sex at the intermediate distance.

Most trainers target Kempton and Ludlow with good ground horses so hopefully, the rain stays away, otherwise it is likely advantage bookmakers.

If that rain does stay away then Destroytheevidence must have a good chance of following up his course win. He looked much improved for cheek pieces. Bailey banging in the winners following The Kemble Brewery debacle. In the listed race Kateira looks plenty short enough given that she is unproven at the trip.

Pretty ordinary stuff at Ludlow. The Hobbs runner in the opener looked a fair sort in winning a modest point. The third horse improved markedly for better ground. The closing bumper is likely much bigger on numbers than quality. Red Panda is the first produce of Snow Leopardess. You would have thought they might have looked to send her to a better sire than Sir Percy. I had been waiting for the price on Jasmine Bliss but missed the 10/1. She jumped well to take a modest point, but looked to have a bit of scope, and although that race was on soft, I doubt that quicker ground will be an issue.
By:
differentdrum
When: 26 Nov 23 21:21
Looks like quite a lot of rain over the next 24 hours so those wanting good ground might very well be disappointed. Could be a fair few non runners. Cold snap coming over the next couple of weeks, hopefully, not bad enough to create a spate of abandonments.

When interviewed today Elliott did talk up his point winner. I suppose it was part sales pitch, but the horse, Son Of Anarchy, did win the second division of the 4yo at Lingstown by 15 lengths, albeit only four finished, and conditions looked pretty testing. No doubt sold to stay in the yard would be his ideal result. By Soldier Of Fortune the pedigree is nothing special.

I did have a little look at the Festival prices earlier, and so many of the markets have yet to take shape. Only the Champion Chase and Champion Hurdle markets look settled, and even there both market leaders have yet to run. Closest I came to a bet was JPR One in the Arkle, but I couldn't be persuaded to back something ridden by Powell. He might end up being the best of the English and still not place. I did think of one horse for the handicaps, but only Unibet offering odds, and it isn't quoted. No intention of giving them a steer, and they then come up with 12/1.
By:
sageform
When: 27 Nov 23 08:39
I am very happy with Brendan Powell on Tizzard horses as he is riding them all the time. You can hardly blame him for JPR One last time who jumped the last perfectly and stumbled on landing. Whether he is good enough for the Arkle is another thing. I note that Hermes Alen is due to start in the John Francome novice at Newbury. If he does run then they must be very confident in his jumping as it is a tough race (if anything else runs of course) It is a race I always note as I was fortunate to own a share in Lucky Bay who won it in 2002 beating One Knight among others who of course went on to win the RSA. Back to hurdlers, Nathanael Greene was a decent flat horse and good/soft should be fine. It will take a good horse to beat him if he can jump.
By:
differentdrum
When: 27 Nov 23 10:10
I would want to see Hermes Allen do it first. I don't remember him as a big, imposing, chasing type. He was absolutely tonked by Johnnywho in his first point. His first season tailed off somewhat, albeit they probably made the mistake of thinking he had more speed than he actually had.

After I posted I did change my mind and took the 33/1 JPR One. There is a fair chance you are going to get a run in what is often a small field Arkle. Unless he bombs at Sandown then I should have the option of cashing out. I don't blame him for JPR One, but was that much worse than Cobden on Stage Star who stayed on? Unfortunately, I have bad memories of him falling off Amarillo Sky at Newbury with the race in his pocket. I am sure at times a lack of confidence can transmit. When it comes to big events you want someone who is at the top of their game. Even if he turns up at that level it's still a level well below the best. You have to make a judgement as to whether you have a big enough price to compensate.
By:
sageform
When: 27 Nov 23 11:27
If he was riding for someone else, I would share your concern but I am a big fan of stable jockeys. Some rarely get good rides for other trainers, Cobden is only just getting a few good outside rides, Skelton rarely, de Boinville hardly any, Deutsch only 2 trainers etc. but on their stable horses they are all very good imo. Is Sean Bowen really that much better or is it just number of rides?
By:
sageform
When: 27 Nov 23 12:28
I didn't expect Nathanael to start favourite. Very short now for a first run over hurdles but the market is talking.
By:
sageform
When: 27 Nov 23 12:41
Market badly wrong. Neither of the flat horses could cope with the first 2 who went well clear.
By:
differentdrum
When: 27 Nov 23 17:36
Most things correct except for the one I backed. Typical. That was one of the worst rides I have seen all season. It was a ride that shouted I am not too interested in winning this race. The idea that she could give the favourite that much start and stroll through on the bridle was laughable. When the money is down we know Derham/O'Brien are point and fire merchants, so why these tactics on this horse who having been strong in the market eventually drifted from 11/4-5/1. I would say some people knew the ride it was going to get. Icing on the bookmaker cake to finish fourth as well.

One or two taking performances for a Monday. Imperial Saint always looked the winner in a poor race. They now have the option of going up in trip, and he looks nicely bought. I get tired of analysts sticking up 'ran keen' as if it is always a cast iron excuse for a horse that loses. What about Secret Squirrel today? Bass had trouble holding him throughout, but he has won with a ton in hand. In looks he reminded me of a Leigh/Cumani horse called Seta. Hopefully, he will maintain his progress a bit better than she did. Destroytheevidence outstayed the opposition. I still think is better on a quicker surface, and it will be interesting to see if they give him a winter break. Whether she stayed or not, Kateira was very disappointing.
By:
differentdrum
When: 27 Nov 23 17:48
Basement level tomorrow.

Banprionsa should land the odds at Tramore, but she will need to improve in the jumping department. Nicholls will be hoping his bumper runner at Southwell improves on the dismal effort of his first runner for the owner last week. Lindy Reilly is the pedigree pick, but who knows what you are likely to get with a Skelton first timer?
By:
sageform
When: 27 Nov 23 20:29
Secret Squirrel was the pick of all of the horses seen today for me.
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