Nice list Felt. I will just go through it with you.

Authorized is by Montjeu owned by Tabor
New Approach Irish
Sea the Stars  Irish
Workforce miles best and he only had 3 runners, can't do a lot with only three.
Pour Moi owned by Coolmore
Golden Horn miles best and only three runners again
Harzand Irish
Masar no Ballydoyle frontrunners because their fav, Saxon Warrior, was a doubtful stayer.

He won't cr ap on his own doorstep. Hence Irish runners.

Hope this helps Felt?

knoxville Joined: 22 Nov 10
Replies: 152816 Jul 20 15:47 
wow
imagine using tactics to win a horse race...
this thread is fooking ridiculously stupid


And some of the tactical Coolmore conspiracy threads are pure fantasy.

Name another trainer who has, in the past, been accused of using team tactics (lets get this straight, this is NOT ALLOWED).

English King simply not good enough. No complaints by connections. Simples. When Sea the Stars won the Irish Champion Stakes O'Brien had 6 out of 9 of the runners. What happened, best horse won.

Could give you lots of examples. If the opposition is good enough they will succeed. No big conspiracy going on at all. If you think English King is the best horse that ran in the Derby I would seriously question that.

dont think brigust mentions nationality, i detest what coolmore do, but its nothing to do with nationality, sad you have to bring this up

Considering your username Try My Best I thought you would understand Irish racing a bit more. That is AOB's love he is passionate about improving Irish racing and supporting Irish races. He is not going to stitch up any Irish trainers any time soon.

We will have to wait and see about English King but I never backed him in the Derby so I have no allegiance in that direction. Anf the trainer isn't going to complain in public for goodness sake.

In the Derby Beggy, on Vatican City, was drawn in 8 but to ensure English King was boxed in he had to get rid of Pyle Driver who was alongside Mogul ridden by Moore. While Pyle Driver was there English King may have an opportunity to extract himself so Beggy muscled Pyle Driver out of the way and sat alongside Mogul until the reached the home straight.
You may call it luck but I think it was planned. Everyone says how well AOB plans everything and discusses tactics with his jockeys but as soon as someone brings their tactics into question then the usual suspects start crying. 'Oh don't, please don't, not Aiden'. 

He is a team player but in horse racing and in my eyes that is a cheat. But you have to have the right circumstances to pull off these actions. I am only pointing out one, of many, instances where these actions worked a treat. I am absolutely certain these plans fall apart many, many more times as soon as the stalls open but this was as plain as the nose on your face.
What Beggy did is what jockeys do every day the only difference is he wasn't doing to give himself a chance of winning he did it to ensure a stable companion won that is why it is cheating.

Anyone who has read Vincent's autobiographies or Horsetrader among other things will know of VOB's hatred of the British from birth. It is well documented and Ballydoyle was built on that hatred. AOB trained Istabraq for JP who has in extensive business dealings with Magnier who married VOB's daughter and they all come from the same region in Ireland so it was a natural transition for AOB to train at Ballydoyle.

I do not doubt for one minute the benefits Irish racing has gained from Ballydoyle/Coolmore financially but morally is a completely different situation.

I think for racing as a whole they are bad news. They are bad for punters and they use tactics that are reprehensible. They are probably terrible for small breeders but I have no evidence of that.

But my most severe criticism is that they have not bred a champion in 20 years. For all of their firepower and ability to use it to their own benefit.

In every decade before the current situation there were around 20 champions born but in the last two decades not a single champion from Ballydoyle. They may corner the breeding market but they are no good whatsoever for racing. Nothing about them appeals to me. Absolutely nothing. 

I like Stakes races and Group races, I do not like handicaps. So almost every race I am interested in I have to deal with a mob from Ballydoyle and no-one knows which is the best, even their stable jockey.

We are shifting a little way from race tactics now. I suggest small breeders in Ireland have a great deal to thank them for. As far as the champions issue is concerned I expect many of the horses people consider champions over the last decade or so will involve Coolmore stallions. That's their role in the industry to provide stallions to breeders. You don't breed to race you race to breed and they do that exceptionally well.

So almost every race I am interested in I have to deal with a mob from Ballydoyle and no-one knows which is the best, even their stable jockey.  ---  I took this point separate because I agree 100% with you, but its not their fault. They pretty much know every year that they will have the best middle distance 3yo's (and often sprints and stayers as well). They don't need to gun them up the gallops to find out which one is best and risk breaking them in the process. Instead they just enter lots with potential (particularly in 3yo races) and see what falls out. If you look at other operations that get a once in a blue moon top class horse they feel they have to train it to the second and very often get it wrong. Military March is a great example. That doesn't suit you and I understand that but you would probably do the same in their position.

brigust, im the same group races and in particular group1 is my thing, thats why i enjoyed studying the form and knowing coolmore werent mob handed in last weeks july cup, was really great

Think my racing knowledge is pretty good Brigust and I've read Horsetrader about 100 times it's that good of a book. I could nearly recite off by heart the passage that you posted above from the same book. I just think that to call them cheats is way off the mark and belittles their skills and professionalism. That's why they are the best. It's no hobby horse for them, it's about knowledge of the horse and breed aligned with a trainer that epitomises class and decency with a work ethic that is streets above anyone else. To get to this position when they were relying on individual wealthy investors such as Sangster, Schwartz, Robert Fluor and Patrick Gallagher to name but a few against the billions at the disposal of the Arabs surely is some achievement and should be recognised accordingly. Have they ever been accused or found guilty of wrongdoings by the international racing community and establishment or by their fellow peers. I cannot recall anything from memory.

That is a bit naive Try. Churchill's win in the 2000 where the team kept the other runners in the middle of the track on the slower ground while Churchill nipped up the rails. And Capri's Irish Derby where all the Ballydoyle runners swung out wide coming into the straight to push out Frankies horse and the French horse. These were pretty blatant and they were called out on them but it is difficult to prove.
His jockeys are not going to testify against him so all they can do is shown above.

Sorry but, to me, they are cheats at best.

I am still trying to work out Ryan Moore's position. He gets it wrong far too many times so all I can think is that he gets his cut no matter which one wins. That way they can put him on losers and their bookies side will clear any additional cost involved with paying him a bonus.

How many more years/decades until the world realises that AOB is as much of a genius as the guy with one leg who lost his house betting on himself in arse kicking competitions?

As usual a good discussion interrupted by an idiot

Actually Try, at the time it was extensively discussed on the tv.
Churchill was drawn wide in 3 and ended up on the rails thanks to Lancaster Bomber who when they reached the cutaway pulled out from behind Churchill, after letting Churchill get in front of him and on the rails, and then,with the other O'Brien runner, they kept all the other runners bar the one behind Churchill out on the course while Churchill was the only horse on fresh ground on the rails.
As the commentator said 'the O'Brien trio holding formation'.
He would never have got to the rails without his stable companions help and he would not have won. When he met the second horse next tie he beat him nearly 5 lengths.
A crook! End of.

You must be living in a dream world Try. What do you think AOB says to his jockeys, or any trainer for that matter? 'Hi boys, have a nice ride. See you when you get back'. Do you really think he hasn't looked at where his horses are in the stalls and where he would like them to be in the race? Who to follow and who to avoid? And who the dangers are?
You are clearly watching the race through AOB tinted spectacles. Lancaster bomber actually stopped Barney Roy from getting to the cutaway here Moore was. Lancaster Bomber's jockey reining back to let Moore get in front of him and on the rails was not an accident. Do you think if LB was from another stable he would have let Moore in? Do you think Santiago would have 'got the gap' if it wasn't between two stable companions in the Irish Derby?

Team tactics form no part of pre-race preparations at Ballydoyle, Aidan O’Brien insisted on Monday. “I promise you, never ever,” the trainer said when the subject was raised by the Guardian, concern having been expressed in public by the owners of the two horses currently at the head of the betting for Saturday’s Derby.

“I can guarantee you, every horse runs on their merits to do their very best and there would never be a plan to do this or do that to any other horse,” said O’Brien, who will be seeking a record-breaking eighth Derby success this weekend. He has seven of the 17 possible runners at his stable in County Tipperary, though none are shorter than 7-1 in the betting.


Talking Horses: Aidan O'Brien outlines plans for quick Derby double
Read more
O’Brien has so many talented horses in his care that he usually has several runners in the best Flat races in Britain and Ireland, the most recent example being Saturday’s Irish Derby, in which he had six of the 14 who took part and ended up with the first four home. That means he is well placed to influence the way in which a race develops and his several runners are generally eyed with mistrust by rivals with a single runner.

Sheikh Fahad, whose Kameko is second-favourite for the Derby, spoke up through Twitter after the St James’s Palace Stakes at Royal Ascot, saying: “There’s no place for team tactics in racing, such a shame to watch the St James run like that.”

While he did not name O’Brien, the Irishman was the only trainer with more than one runner in that race. One of the jockeys he employed was asked by stewards to explain his riding and the instructions he had been given, but in the end they did not find any rules had been breached.

Sunday’s Racing Post brought another intervention, from Bjorn Nielsen, whose English King is the Derby favourite. “A lot of people with good horses are worried,” he said. “Team tactics threaten to devalue racing at the highest class. A pacemaker is one thing but sitting there and forming a peloton is quite another.”

While he also did not name O’Brien, he spoke approvingly of Ger Lyons’s comments after the Irish Guineas, in which Siskin had to be strong to establish racing room among Ballydoyle runners. “We knew through the history books what the Ballydoyle riders were going to try to do,” Lyons said, though he added: “All is fair in love and war. It’s a big boys’ sport and you just put on your big boy pants and get out there and do the job.”


O’Brien was careful not to use any names in his answers, saying at one point: “I don’t ever talk about anyone else’s horses or any other people. I would be always afraid that I would offend someone and that’s why I say very little most of the time.”

But he insisted rivals had nothing to fear on this score.

“Every single horse, I will always give the jockey what I think is the best instructions for that horse to win that race. Some horses want to be ridden forward, some horses like to be mid-div, some horses like to be dropped in.” He noted an apparent assumption on the part of his rivals that, when he fields several runners, one of them will set the pace.

“What happens a lot of the time, if one of our horses is not making the running, there’s no pace and the race becomes an absolute muddle, everyone is jockeying for positions. It can become very messy.”

While he did not wish to cite an example, O’Brien feels sour grapes can be a factor in some of the things said about his operation. “Sometimes what happens is a big jockey or a big trainer, high profile, they might start crying after the race, to relieve pressure off themselves, for their owners or for some mistake that they made. And it’s easy for them to point the finger at us.”


Talking Horses: jockeys seeing benefits of one race meeting per day
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O’Brien expects to have at least six Derby runners. Armory may yet be diverted to France, he says, but that would still leave Vatican City, Mogul, Russian Emperor, Amhran Na Bhfiann, Mythical and Serpentine.

Asked which he expects will be the choice of his principal jockey, Ryan Moore, O’Brien said: “I haven’t spoken to him yet but looking at it, Vatican City, if he stays, he’s a very classy looking horse. Usually what happens with Ryan is, he gets the declarations [on Thursday], he sees the draws and then I tell him everything that I think and then he has to make a decision. And it’s not an easy one this year.

“Because Ryan is not here now, he’s in England all the time, he’s not going to know how much Mogul improved but I would be telling him. He’s going to think, obviously, that the horse in the Guineas [Vatican City] was a very good run, so he has to be very close in the pecking order. We would always leave him to leave that decision as late as he can because, really, nobody knows until they go out there and cover that distance on the day.”

I believe O'Brien is telling the truth.

Are you calling O'Brien a cheat and a liar then?