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IF AIDEN IS A GOD, HOW COME HIS SONS CAN WIN GROUP1S STRAIGHT AWAY
IF AIDEN IS A GOD, HOW COME HIS SONS CAN WIN GROUP1S STRAIGHT AWAY
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Look what they are now doing with Monarch of Egypt
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What is Aidan doing with Monarch of Egypt. Going up in trip by 3 furlongs and getting battered in a very weak field for the grade. As I said this horse needs a stiff 6f to show its best on fast ground and needs to come back in trip rather than stepping it up. If Ballydoyle need my help in placing their horses I hope they are not afraid to ask. A terrible mistake to run this horse over that trip. Run it in the Sprint Cup at Haydock.
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They are gangsters end off, another horse ruined.
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The Ballysax today, sums them up in a nutshell.
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Where is US Army Ranger? That horse ran practically in most distances (except sprint) associated with Flat racing.
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Listen!! All you have to do is ignore the constant hype and the pundits who dish it out every day, because if the didn't they may not get interviews etc, and you can see what is really going on.
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So this year apart from wining the English and Irish 1000 Guineas.
Finishing 2nd in the English and Irish 2000 Guineas. Winner and 3rd in the Epsom Derby. First 4 places in the Irish Derby. Winner of the Oaks, and the Irish Oaks still to come. Can the experts on here explain exactly what they are doing wrong. |
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'There are none so blind as those who will not see'.
Why should I spend my time educating you? If you are happy about things good luck to you. I am sure you are not alone. I guess being on a punting website you bet on horses. Why not you tell me what is good about Ballydoyle from a punting point of view? |
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I'm a massive fan of the Ballydoyle team and what they have accomplished which makes it harder to fathom what they are doing with MOE.
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Listen!!
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kevo, theyre not doing nothing wrong for themselves , quite correct, yes winning all the classics, finishing placed in all the classics , winning most group1 , winning nearly every group race in ireland, running most of the fields in classics, if that what you want fair enough, but ive loved horse racing especially the classics, group1 for over 50 years , and now i just dont care, id rather have a bet on cricket/ soccer, and im certain that many more do as well,
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When I look at the top rated horses born in the last 20 years they are Frankel, Sea the Stars, Harbinger, Battash, Cracksman and Cirrus des Aigles. Cecil, Oxx, Stoute, Hills, Gosden and Barande-Barbe. Yet none of these had anywhere near the fire power Ballydoyle has. So they are either very unlucky or unable to place/train their horses properly. There is absolutely no doubt the quality of today's horses is not the same as decades before. How long does this go on before it is recognized? Either they are just not as good as they used to be, which I do not accept, or the good ones are not achieving their full potential.
If you, like me, think it is the latter point then there is only one place that holds that key. I do understand the shotgun approach, particularly in Ireland because if they ran their horses the lower grade races just to win them the Irish trainers would be up in arms. But running the horses just because they have them is not the answer. Not in my opinion anyway. |
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There seems to be a hardcore of opinion against Coolmore. My guess is they won't care much and keep plying their successful trade regardless. I can assure everyone that the vast majority of people that know what they are talking about rate them very highly. As far as horses being better decades ago its just an opinion and total nonesense as far as I am concerned.
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That is your opinion Honcho and I totally respect that. But if you think the horses today are better, where are they? That is exactly my point. The only possible place where the breeding and the training of future champions is likely to be is Coolmore/Ballydoyle. You cannot have it both ways.
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Hang on a second, what are you talking about. I said I don't think the horses in the past are as good as today. Where are they? well they are all around you but you don't like them so you say they are not as good. You are putting your opinion up as evidence, its not its just opinion like mine. Every horse you mentioned is just your opinion, it isn't mine. Further, I have never said that Coolmore have the best horses but they are the best operation. In an earlier post you said it was Coolmores money that made it for them. You must be kidding, you don't think oil wells may give you a few quid to compete with? You don't think all the money those big Newmarket trainers have between them shouldn't get them a little more success? I think your stance against Coolmore (right or wrong) is clouding your vision about their competition. And for what it is worth I don't think they have the best stallions at the moment and am not as big a fan of Galileo as many are. I just think they manage him and his stock superbly.
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Good luck with that.
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obriens have 8 of the 12 declared for irish oaks,
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I think honcho and brigust are probably on the same side, just looking at it from a different angle.
Ballydoyle don't maximize the potential of the really good horses.... would they have run Frankel in the derby along with 4 others? They weren't too clever with So You Think who the aussies thought was second coming.. Coolmore do exceptionally well with a sire who if he were with Darley would almost certainly be on the scrap heap. |
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Here we go again, the Nijinsky stakes at Leopardstown this evening, 5/7 runners belong to Aidan or Joseph, and if I'm not mistaken 6/7 belong to coolmore, Ravens Pass being the exception. This is my biggest gripe with the way they are dominating / spoiling racing imo.
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** 6/7 sires belong to coolmore**
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 , |
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I agree that it would be better if there was more competition in the races (that is better for any sport). My argument is thats not AOB's fault you have to look at the opposition. A vast amount of the industry (especially in Ireland) is about selling horses on to rich Arabs or Hong Kong the minute they show any potential and they go abroad to race. They are not interested in keeping them to race. As people point out on here all the time, The cost/benefit of owning horses is woeful in the UK and Ireland.
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I just think they are crooks. Remember Churchill's 2000 Guineas and Capri's Irish Derby? Can a leopard change its spots? And they are probably only the ones that were obvious.
Just watch English King in the Epsom Derby he is completely boxed in by the Ballydoyle horses until it was too late. Was that error or by design? You decide. I already have. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. |
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In fact Vatican City knocked Pyle Driver out of the way so that he could get alongside English King.
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Frankie could have done a lot better on EK in my opinion. When they came up the hill there was room for him to go to the front when they tacked over, but he decided to track Mogul. He got himself boxed in.
You have your views on AOB and I won't be changing them. The reason they are at the top (in part) is because of the woeful competition. I mean that in the wider sense. Crooked agents buying crap horses for big trainers to make money and trainers going back to the same well year after year. Owners being ripped off and soon chucking it in. These are some of the key reasons why the competition to Coolmore is underwhelming. |
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That was job done for Ballydoyle from the moment that had the danger boxed in and they had the clear leader. And, as you suggest, they knew racing from the start was the last thing Frankie wanted to do. If he had tried to undertake Moore he could easily have stayed in front of him. This isn't a team game you know.
To blame Frankie is blindness personified. Frankie had to believe Moore would be trying to win the race. You really think you don't understand my point, Honcho. The 'woeful' competition, as you call it, are the leftovers after Coolmore have finished. My view is that the 'total' horse racing population should be shared around more top-class trainers so that they could be trained for and aimed at the targets their trainers deemed most suitable for them. That is not what is happening with the cream of the racehorse population. And, you would not believe this but, there are some people who are quite happy and contented about that situation. You really would not believe it. |
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**I really think
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I do understand your point Bigrust, I just don't agree with it. As I have said one of the biggest reasons Coolmore have made it to the top and been so dominant is due to (in part) the ineptitude and questionable practices of others. What I think would happen if you shared the horse population amongst others is that they would just sell on for a quick profit and to hell with tomorrow. Coolmore are long term. I wouldn't defend everything they do and I certainly won't be on the other thread about jockey tactics, but on the whole I think they deserve to be where they are and they are far more professional and honest than many in this game. I can see your frustrations I just think they are a little misplaced and you may think about the rest of them.
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Sorry Honcho this has been going on for years. How do you think the trainer of English King feels. He is trying to do it properly and by the book and he gets ganged up on by the crooks. You cannot condone that?
Do you really think the Balldoyle horses go out en mass just to ride their own races? Do you really think O'Brien doesn't look at his group and think how best to win the big races? Do you really think when a jockey has a chance to box in the main danger to him making or getting a cut of some sizeable payout he will just sit on his hands? That is what you are saying. Do you really think that? |
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I don't think they are cheaters and that's what you are implying. A horse doesn't have to move to make way for another one and if you get yourself inside one then bad luck. I don't believe that their jockeys are anymore 'sporting' than others. I have seen plenty of incidents where jockeys interfere with other horses and I think on the whole (as far as I can see) they give their horses their best chance. As far as the trainer of EK is concerned, maybe he should have left the established jockey on him. He didn't seem to be conned by the pace.
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I am sorry Honcho but the evidence is absolutely overwhelming and it is not going to decrease any time soon.
Your idea that it is the householder who is at fault because they get burgled is for the fairies. You probably do think Ryan Moore sat where he did because he didn't know Serpentine was going to make the running. And you think Vatican City's jockey moved into his position and kept English King boxed in behind Ryan Moores mount accidentally. I have to rest my case Honcho but thanks for making it a reasonable and respectful debate. |
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My pleasure brigust.
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What did the trainer of Siskin call the O'Brien battalion in the Irish 2000G? Dettori on Stradivarius was deliberately and repeatedly boxed in? Marquand deliberately and strategically edged left to disallow Threat (Murphy) to come in to be behind Moore (Wichita) in the SJP; the prinicpal opponents of Saxon Warrior (SW) in the 2000G were kept out/wide to allow SW a clear passage om the rail to the finishing line.
Of course it's evidently clear AOB/Coolmore are applying riding tactics to frustrate, negate or deny their principal opponents of winning a big race. And, I've no doubt whatsoever. |
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wow
imagine using tactics to win a horse race... this thread is fooking ridiculously stupid |
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Let me rephrase. AOB will use "unsporting" riding tactics eg repeatedly/strategically/deliberately to box in his (principal) opponents to win races and to minimise his opponents from wining.
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Well that's your opinion Impossible. I reckon there may well be tactics but I don't really see them as unsporting. I'm sure they are not going to give way to a key opponent but I find it hard to believe they would plan such an action. I think Frankie got himself in a bad position in the Derby and they were not going to help him were they? With millions of pounds riding on such races you can't expect any favours.
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Not the Derby, but on Stradivarius in the Gold Cup. The most recent were their battalion against Siskin; Marquand on Royal Dornoch on Threat in the SJP.
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A few stats for the last few years when Ballydoyle haven`t won the Derby. The list names the horse and the number of Ballydoyle runners
Authorized - 8 New approach - 5 Sea The Stars - 6 Workforce - 3 Pour Moi - 4 Golden Horn - 3 Harzand - 7 Masar - 5 In my opinion in every instance the best horse on the day won and I saw no evidence of tactical riding to try and deny any of these winners. Willie Carson said the best horse wins the Derby because they have the speed, balance and stamina to win in spite of what is going on around them. I cannot accept that Frankie Dettori was denied a winning chance because of tactics, he is a world class jockey and over a mile and half he would have ample opportunities to put English King into a position to possibly win. Aiden o` Brien immediately after the Derby said all of his horses are there to try and win the race and not to spoil the chances of others and I believe him. |
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I agree with Feltfair. If the opposition are good enough they will win.
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I think it's because Moore is a handicap thus AOB deploying a battalion each time trying to win.
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