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2023 Qatar Prix de L'Arc de Triomphe

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Replies: 236
By:
.Marksman.
When: 24 Sep 23 19:36
Well none of these will be running:
Fantastic Moon
Zagrey
Paddington
Hurricane Lane (officially scratched)
Adayar (scratched)
Torquator Tasso (retired to stud)
Grand Glory (retired to stud)
Desert Crown (out for the season, at least)

And there are loads more who are extremely unlikely such as:
Sammarco (in the sales the night before the Arc)
Equinox  (Has not been entered and connections have stated that they will miss the Arc).
By:
impossible123
When: 24 Sep 23 19:50
Continuous running in The ARC 15 days after winning a race over 14f; Emily Dickinson (Cadran); Unquestionable (Lagardere); Opera Singer (Boussac); Jackie Oh (Opera).

Luxembourg and Paddington being aimed at Ascot's Champions Day.
By:
.Marksman.
When: 24 Sep 23 22:57
I don't consider running in a winning a 14f race just 15 days before the Arc as necessarily a disadvantage.  But when the race is the St Leger, that is a whole different ball game.  The stats are massively against Continuous winning this.  2 years ago I posted stats that indicated that the Leger was one of the worst (or the worst) G1 race for horses to make a quick reappearance after winning or even running in.  I will try and retrieve updated stats soon.
By:
.Marksman.
When: 25 Sep 23 00:56
Since 1997 22 horses have run in the St Leger and reappeared in Group 1 races within the next 25 days.  None of these made the first 2 places on this reappearance:
    “DATE”        “HORSE”        “NEXT RACE”        “PLACING”        “ODDS inc STAKE”   
    2000-09-16         CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT  USA          JEFFERSON SMURFIT MEMORIAL IRISH ST.LEGER (GROUP 1)         6        10   
    2000-09-16         ROSTROPOVICH I  IRE          JEFFERSON SMURFIT MEMORIAL IRISH ST.LEGER (GROUP 1)         4        21   
    2001-10-07         MILAN  GB          PRIX DE L*ARC DE TRIOMPHE LUCIEN BARRIERE (GROUP 1)         5        5.8   
    2001-10-07         SADDLER*S CREEK  USA          PRIX DE L*ARC DE TRIOMPHE LUCIEN BARRIERE (GROUP 1)         16        5.8   
    2002-09-28         SHOLOKHOV  IRE          PRIX DE L*ARC DE TRIOMPHE LUCIEN BARRIERE (GROUP 1)         4        34   
    2004-10-02         TYCOON  GB          JOE HIRSCH TURF CLASSIC INVITATIONAL (GRADE 1)         3        10.2   
    2004-09-26         DARSALAM  IRE          IVG - PREIS VON EUROPA (GROUP 1)         3        9.7   
    2005-10-02         SCORPION  IRE          PRIX DE L*ARC DE TRIOMPHE LUCIEN BARRIERE (GROUP 1)        10        11   
    2006-10-01         SIXTIES ICON  GB          PRIX DE L*ARC DE TRIOMPHE LUCIEN BARRIERE (GROUP 1)        6        11   
    2008-09-28         HINDU KUSH  IRE          IVG PREIS VON EUROPA (GROUP 1)         8        19   
    2008-09-28         BASHKIROV  GB          IVG PREIS VON EUROPA (GROUP 1)         9        41   
    2010-10-03         MIDAS TOUCH  GB          QATAR PRIX DE L*ARC DE TRIOMPHE (GROUP 1)        17        41   
    2011-10-02         MASKED MARVEL  GB          QATAR PRIX DE L*ARC DE TRIOMPHE (GROUP 1)        16        15   
    2012-10-07         CAMELOT  GB          QATAR PRIX DE L*ARC DE TRIOMPHE (GROUP 1)        7        3   
    2013-10-06         LEADING LIGHT  IRE          QATAR PRIX DE L*ARC DE TRIOMPHE (GROUP 1)        12        11   
    2014-10-05         KINGSTON HILL  GB          QATAR PRIX DE L*ARC DE TRIOMPHE (GROUP 1)        4        26   
    2017-10-01         CAPRI  IRE          QATAR PRIX DE L*ARC DE TRIOMPHE (GROUP 1)        17        21   
    2018-10-07         KEW GARDENS  IRE          QATAR PRIX DE L*ARC DE TRIOMPHE (GROUP 1)        7        9   
    2018-10-07         NELSON  IRE          QATAR PRIX DE L*ARC DE TRIOMPHE (GROUP 1)        8        101   
    2021-10-03         HURRICANE LANE  IRE          QATAR PRIX DE L*ARC DE TRIOMPHE (GROUP 1)        3        4   
    2021-10-03         MOJO STAR  IRE          QATAR PRIX DE L*ARC DE TRIOMPHE (GROUP 1)        10        47   
    2022-10-01         EMILY DICKINSON  IRE          QATAR PRIX DE ROYALLIEU (GROUP 1)         4        5.1   
By:
impossible123
When: 25 Sep 23 08:52
Which is a better horse or a horse with more credentials, Order Of St George or Continuous? I think most would agree it'd be Order Of St George. The former was 4th To Enable, and 3rd to Found in The ARC,

Continuous beat Arrest? What did Arrest beat? Continuous was behind King Of Steel and Ace Impart over 12f; behind Ace Impart and Feed The Flame over 10.5f. The ARC price of Continuous is about right on a line with Feed The Flame given possible ground.
By:
brandyontherocks
When: 25 Sep 23 11:48
Arc forfeits on Monday

Sisfahan.             Henk Grewe
Haya Zark.            Adrien Fouassier
Onesto.               Fabrice Chappet
Simca Mille.          Stephane Wattel
Bay Bridge.           Sir Michael Stoute
Westover.             Ralph Beckett
Hukum.                Owen Burrows
Place Du Carrousel.   Andre Fabre
Through Seven Seas.   Tomohito Ozeki
Emily Dickinson.      Aidan O'Brien
Free Wind.            John and Thady Gosden
Sprewell.             Jessica Harrington
Mr Hollywood.         Henk Grewe
Feed The Flame.       Pascal Bary
Ace Impact.          Jean-Claude Rouget
By:
penzance
When: 25 Sep 23 13:08
Since the French Derby has been over 10F (2005) not 1 wnr has gone on to
win the Arc that year,think 10 have tried.Sottsass did but as a 4yr old.
Ace Impact could well change that this year.1st try @ 12F in this but the
way he he won the his Derby looks sure to get it to me.No reason that Feed
The Flame & Continuous will reverse the form from what I can see.Seems to
go on all surfaces aswell.Looking forward to a big performance from this
horse.Hope they all show.
   GL ALL
By:
Sandown
When: 25 Sep 23 15:38
The SL to Arc is a tough call for any horse. Even Nijinsky failed. A 2 week gap instead of the usual 3 weeks demands even more. A lively surface over 2.5 furlongs less doesn't help.

Smacks a little of "There's nothing else for him. Whats the downside anyway, he won't run again this year" rather than looking like a long-term plan.

Should be double figures with those negatives. Well, he is with me.
By:
penzance
When: 25 Sep 23 17:20
User Friendly came close when just touched off by Subotica.
Already a GP1 filly being an Epsom,Irish & Yorkshire Oaks wnr.
By:
.Marksman.
When: 25 Sep 23 18:45
Latest BBC forecast for Paris (Charles de Gaul Airport) is for no rain at all between now and race time on Sunday.  Lots of sunshine all week and warm.  And the warmest day will be Sunday.

(26C).https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/6269554
By:
FOYLESWAR
When: 25 Sep 23 18:54
fantastic moon could be supplimented back in according to media ,what happens to ante post bets ?
By:
.Marksman.
When: 25 Sep 23 20:31
Foyles, I have just read that on Paris Turf, which uses the caveat "if we are to believe the rumours coming out of Germany..."
Fantastic Moon was not an original entry so he would not be "rejoining" the field as Paris Turf have said.
But connections had ruled the Arc out only a week or two ago after previously being under consideration for the race so, if supplemented, he would in a loose sense be rejoining the field.
All antepost bets would be reinstated if he is supplemented.  This sort of thing has happened several times previously without any problems.
By:
.Marksman.
When: 25 Sep 23 20:37
from RacingTV website:

A favourable weather forecast has prompted connections of Fantastic Moon to reconsider supplementing the German Derby winner for Sunday’s Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe at ParisLongchamp.

Despite winning a recognised Arc trial over the course and distance in the Prix Niel, the Sea The Moon colt looked set to sidestep Europe’s premier middle-distance contest in favour of either a trip to the Breeders’ Cup or a tilt at the Japan Cup.

However, with little or no rain forecast in Paris in the run-up to Sunday’s showpiece, his team are now giving serious thought to adding him to the field on Wednesday at a cost of €120,000.

Lars-Wilhelm Baumgarten of owners Liberty Racing said: “We discussed it yesterday, because the weather forecast is dry and the sun in shining in Paris, perhaps we will get good ground.


“We will decide as late as possible because every day is important for us. How the horse is, how is he looking and working.

“We have a few opportunities too with the Breeders’ Cup and the Japan Cup and now we have the option of the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe again.

“We will see – our vet will check him, he will gallop in Munich and then we will see what’s going on and what the weather forecast will be in Paris.

“We decided two weeks ago that we would not run but the situation is new, the ground is better than we expected and the horse is better than we expected 14 days after the Prix Niel.

“It’s new information and a lot of horses are out of the race, so we will see.”
By:
FOYLESWAR
When: 25 Sep 23 21:02
thanks marksman , a lot of ifs buts and maybes as to wether he will  even line up but if he does he has a chance and wont be 100/1 .we will see, good luck .
By:
Andrew.in.Sweden
When: 26 Sep 23 06:12
Foyleswar

The forfeit (2) and supplementary stages are a day earlier for the Arc (not so other races on the card) so you will know before tomorrow lunchtime if Fantastic Moon is a runner. Final runners on Thursday.

I also have a fun bet on another German horse, Mr Hollywood at crazy odds (average @ 147) although ideally he wants soft/heavy, but has run OK on good. The H2H between our runners is 1-1, MH beating FM by 7.5L (10f on heavy) and the latter turning the form around winning by 2.5L in the German Derby(12f). I've seen FM twice, once in München when he was beaten by Charlie Appleby's Nations Pride, the other occasion at the trial 3 week ago. He ran well to win, but the pace was a farce.

Good luck.
By:
brandyontherocks
When: 27 Sep 23 14:40
Arc forfeits on Wednesday

Sisfahan.       Henk Grewe
Haya Zark.      Adrien Fouassier
Onesto.         Fabrice Chappet
Simca Mille.    Stephane Wattel
Bay Bridge.     Sir Michael Stoute
Westover.       Ralph Beckett
Hukum.          Owen Burrows
Place Du Carrousel Andre Fabre
Through Seven Seas Tomohito Ozeki
Free Wind.         John and Thady Gosden
Mr Hollywood.      Henk Grewe
Feed The Flame.    Pascal Bary
Ace Impact.        Jean-Claude Rouget
Fantastic Moon.    Sarah Steinberg
Continuous.        Aidan O'Brien
By:
impossible123
When: 27 Sep 23 19:19
AOB and Coolmore will not run Auguste Rodin, Luxembourg or Savethelastdance here. I think Continuous offers a day out for the most dominant horseracing stable and horseracing enterprise in the world. I think 6/1 is shocking for a St Leger winner; a place lay is so very tempting for me.
By:
brandyontherocks
When: 27 Sep 23 21:12
Agree, Impossible123.

Very short in the betting.

I've been trying to look at the pace angle.

Does not seem to be any confirmed front runners in the race.
By:
gpz6316
When: 27 Sep 23 22:07
we maybe looking at a new great of french horseracing to rival some of their best in ace impact . I would select it if my life were on it , but , 7-2 about a horse that connections neglected to run around longchamp in the niel to steal more prizemoney . The course  should come as much the same as the last , but , if youre thinking and dont know where you are because you,ve not been before , because the greedy owners wanted a bigger cheque than the niel its a negative . At the prices i,ll be on through seven seas . best of luck with your selection
By:
gpz6316
When: 27 Sep 23 22:30
the horse knows how to win in big fields ,the current form line doesn't get better , the ground is coming for it and the Japanese couldn't want it more . Only reason its the price is the japanese have bee burnt soo many times . this time they got it . imo
By:
impossible123
When: 27 Sep 23 22:57
'gpz6316', are you turning Japanese? A few close shaves and false dawns in the past, and this year's rep is under-the-radar. My anteposts are the 2 French 3 yr olds. Best of luck!
By:
brandyontherocks
When: 28 Sep 23 11:46
confirmed runners and riders
(Draw details in brackets)

Sisfahan.            Lukas Delozier (13)
Haya Zark.           Gerald Mosse (4)
Onesto.              Maxime Guyon (9)
Simca Mille.         Alexis Pouchin (15)
Bay Bridge.          Richard Kingscote (6)
Westover.            Rob Hornby (1)
Hukum.               Jim Crowley (14)
Place Du Carrousel.  Mickael Barzalona (11)
Through Seven Seas.  Christophe Lemaire (5)
Free Wind.           Frankie Dettori (3)
Mr Hollywood.        Bauyrzhan Murzabayev (10)
Feed The Flame.      Christophe Soumillon (2)
Ace Impact.          Cristian Demuro (8)
Fantastic Moon.      Rene Piechulek (12)
Continuous.          Ryan Moore (7)
By:
gpz6316
When: 28 Sep 23 21:21
e , sou desu !
By:
brandyontherocks
When: 28 Sep 23 22:39
Indeed it is
By:
impossible123
When: 29 Sep 23 08:49
Soumillon or Demuro? Which local jockey pushed a British jockey off his horse deliberately in a big race in France?
By:
.Marksman.
When: 29 Sep 23 10:06
I presume you mean Soumillon when he pushed Rossa Ryan off about a year ago.  But it is arguable whether he deliberately pushed him off, or was just trying to push him out of the way.  But he did push him anyhow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcrzOM3dNdo
By:
impossible123
When: 29 Sep 23 15:15
Thanks 'Marksman'. I got him then, and Demuro against the field. Either will do me fine.
By:
A_T
When: 30 Sep 23 08:26
does not look like a field of world-beaters. surprised emily upjohn was taken out she easily saw off westover at epsom and i'd expect him to be close tomorrow if not actually quite good enough to win
By:
impossible123
When: 30 Sep 23 08:39
Emily Upjohn: That's Gosden for you. When defeating Westover at Epsom he was eulogising the fillies, and destination France the main aim. Unless something is amiss with her - no news apparent on this - I think she ought to be here rather than the 2nd-rated Fillies and Mares at Ascot next month.
By:
.Marksman.
When: 30 Sep 23 13:26
Figgis, are you keeping an eye on the times of these races today with regard to the going tomorrow?
Please keep us updated.  Thanks
By:
Figgis
When: 30 Sep 23 14:05
Marksman, a couple of long distance races aren't the best to use as a guide, but it's difficult to see how it can be slower than good on the evidence so far.
By:
impossible123
When: 30 Sep 23 16:50
If my two eg Ace Impact and Feed The Flame cannot win tomorrow I'd like Mr Kingscote and Sir Stoute win with Bay Bridge. Then Sir Stoute could call it a day, and enjoy the rest of his life watching cricket here and very possibly in Barbados.
By:
apple wine
When: 30 Sep 23 18:28
Any thoughts on an accurate ground description for tomorrow, it appears to have been cracking the flags all week in Paris but ‘good to soft’ going?? TIA!
By:
apple wine
When: 30 Sep 23 18:30
‘Soft’ on ATR website now?
By:
Figgis
When: 30 Sep 23 18:45
Very slightly the fast side of good. Basically it's good ground, with no excuse for any of them.
By:
FELTFAIR
When: 30 Sep 23 18:48
Good or at worst soft side of good. If there is another hot day will be good.
By:
brandyontherocks
When: 30 Sep 23 20:32
I do not know if Figg can reply this late, but
When Feed The Flame won the Grand Prix De Paris it was reported as good to soft but his time indicated much faster going?
By:
brandyontherocks
When: 30 Sep 23 22:16
I have found this years renewal particularly tough to be confident about anything.

Ace Impact was very impressive in the Jockey Club, but he beat two non stayers and wasn't that far clear of Al Riffa in his prep. Though his times have been good he is still to prove his stamina and at 11/4 I am happy to watch him win.

Hukum is now available at s sensible price along with Continuous and Westover.

I don't see the Continuous angle myself. A good winner at York and Doncaster, but short of an Arc winner. And the look of a typical after thought from Ballydoyle.

Westover and Hukum are similarly matched on their Ascot run, but Westover always seems to find one too good to get his head in front at the top table.

I was taken with Feed The Flame early s3ason, and backed him for the Jockey Club.
Thought that was a disappointing run but he bounced back in the Grand Prix De Paris.
He showed his ability for the distance that day with a sharp turn of foot.
He's still on myshort list along side Bay Bridge and Simca Mille.

Both have similar questions to answer with the top of the market, but you are getting plenty of juice in their prices.

Will try to narrow it down in the morning.

Good luck all
By:
Figgis
When: 01 Oct 23 10:39
When Feed The Flame won the Grand Prix De Paris it was reported as good to soft but his time indicated much faster going?

BOTR, yes, really it was good to firm that day.
By:
FELTFAIR
When: 01 Oct 23 10:40
If the going description at the Doncaster St Leger is to be believed Continuous put up a remarkable time and despite all the stats being against him I would be annoyed should he win today so have backed him each way.A similar argument applies to Feed the Flame given his performance in the Grand Prix de Paris and have backed him each way. Finally I am hoping the draw difference may give Westover the edge over Hukum and also have backed each way.The place side is still to be finalised and will back which ever number of places exceeds evens.

Should the above be fruitless I have layed Sisfahan,Haya Zark and Mr Hollywood to recoup my stakes.If either of the aforementioned win then I have **** the bed.
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