Those of us who believe there are  to many Group1 races, will feel even more justified  with that view,to see proper summer ground and lack of runners is just depressing(racing needs to reflect)

A very slowly run race, not that there was any excuse for the favourite beaten by the winner, but not a race to take winning margins and form lines literally, imo. If other people want to do that it's up to them.

Ground too firm for Tooormore , backed yesterday eve, only put small money on myself  so no great loss

That's the spirit Mac.

Where's the pace in this race?

Couldn't really disagree with with that Figgis but for a bit of fun I have laid him at 2s on and I will back him in running and see how that goes. I just have to repeat my tactics message to RH. Not that he hasn't heard it before. The question for me now is what price do I trade out at?

Brigust, what price are you expecting to get in running? If Hughes goes with your tactics and sets a fast pace I'll be very surprised if he could get Kingman off the bridle so the price is unlikely to drift much, if at all. You'd have to be clinging on to the hope that he doesn't quite stay then back him late on, and if you think he doesn't quite stay then why back him at all at that late stage?

I said after the Craven Stakes (posted on the Guineas thread) that Toormore hadn't trained on into a 3yo. He was good at 2yo but the others have caught up.

When they had a 9lbs advantage with Sky Lantern over Elusive Kate in last year's Falmouth Hughes completely squandered it by letting Buick set a slow pace. Now he's at a weight disadvantage I can see him doing the opposite of what he ought to do and making all that extra weight tell. He said before last year's Falmouth that he would go on if he needed to. In the event the race was run at an absolute dawdle, which begs the question what circumstances was he referring to where he would need to make the running? Or were his pre-race comments some kind of Alex Ferguson mind games? Who knows with some jockeys.

Selective editing Figgis. Never mind eh? Try reading all of the posts to give you some context?

I laid Kingman expecting War Command to run and hoping Darwin would be his pace setter. I thought Hughsie would sit on Darwin and kick on three out. At that moment Kingmans price could fluctuate wildly. Especially if at that moment Hughsie gets a couple of lengths.
However now War Command doesn't run, although I have laid at 2/5 and I could lay off at no cost there may still be a margin to be had.
I'll see what happens tomorrow although I don't rally expect the bookies to take Kingman on I may have to settle for his in - running price weakening. What price do I think he will touch? If Darwin makes it at a fast pace and Hughsie sits on him I reckon 4/5 would be readily available at some time. If Hughsie makes it at a fast pace on his own I reckon 4/6 will easily be available. Especially with Darwin there. If there is no pace I expect Kingman to just keep shortening but Darwin could then be a fly in the ointment. We'll see. All is definitely not lost by any means.

Mac99, I think whatever they try it's unlikely to allow Toronado to win. In my view, Kingman has proved he can run a mile (slightly)faster than Toronado has proved so far. On top of that he gets 8lbs from Toronado. If Toronado sets a fast pace then every extra pound of that weight is going to tell, meaning Toronado is going to have to be an absolutely brilliant 4yo miler to bridge the difference. If Kingman is on form I don't see Toronado having any chance under those circumstances.

If Hughes sits in front, waits and tries to steal first run and some ground on Kingman the chances are Kingman will still outsprint him, but it's not an absolute given. Doyle might not be able to get cover in behind, Kingman could possibly race too keenly, Doyle might try to switch him off so much that he overdoes the waiting tactics. Even against a good horse positioning can make a difference in a slowly run race and if Hughes could possibly steal a few lengths and time it so his horse only has to sprint a couple of furlongs he could be difficult to pass, particularly if the ground remains fast. I've seen many slowly run races over the years that have been decided by positioning leading to an inferior horse narrowly beating a better one.

That said, personally I want to see a fast run race, otherwise excuses will be made. If we get a truly run race it will be evident just what a hopeless task Toronado was faced with.

That will change when they have blast the track with water tonight,for if they do not,jG may pull him out?What a non event we have then?my opinion is that even on quick ground Kingman will beat any of last years uk milers,but not by much.

I don't remember anyway I can rely on you for selective editing. If that wasn't your aim why did you just ask what price I thought Kingman would touch in running? Wouldn't that have been a decent question but sadly you have this barb every time you pose me a question. Never mind eh?  Perhaps you can show me the 'whole posts about the Lennox Stakes eh'?

Or is it didn't?

So why didn't you just ask me what price I thought Kingman would touch in running without the additional snide comments

Brigust, what price are you expecting to get in running? If Hughes goes with your tactics and sets a fast pace I'll be very surprised if he could get Kingman off the bridle so the price is unlikely to drift much, if at all. You'd have to be clinging on to the hope that he doesn't quite stay then back him late on, and if you think he doesn't quite stay then why back him at all at that late stage?

Could you kindly point out the snide comments?

You'd have to be clinging on to the hope that he doesn't quite stay then back him late on, and if you think he doesn't quite stay then why back him at all at that late stage? Snide comment.

The 'whole' post was about the Sussex Stakes.

Huge fan of Kingman as the aftertiming brigade will attest tobut I`ve decided to go for 20% for my money Toronado to place. Hope Outstrip doesn`t thow a spanner in the works. I`m expecting Kingman to win but I`m pretty certain it won`t be a repeat of Frankel versus Canford Cliffs. After all Frankel was the best racehorse we`ve all seen.

See what a sensible post that was. A proper discussion point with a view based upon research. It's a pity every post isn't in a similar vein. I enjoy coming on here when time allows so I see no reason why posters shouldn't be courteous and respectful to add to the experience. Everyone has views, so are valid and some are wild but it all adds to the experience.

Of course I am worried about Hughsie being able to set a proper pace and really with his experience he should be able to but as yet I haven't seen it. With War Command in the race there was every likelihood Darwin would make the pace a strong one and he is a quality animal so should set good early fractions. Without War Command I'm thinking RM will sit and hope Toronado and Kingman take each other on and he can pick up 3rd place. Assuming the Sin Bin horse also waits. I would like Hughsie to go out and make it a solid pace from the outset winding it up as they come down the home straight but I'm not holding my breath after watching the Irish 2000 Gns and SJP.

Felt stop showing your age boy.

Toronado  also bombed out at York  when ridden with restraint , but it should be remembered that he showed  a great deal of resolve in hauling back D, Approach in this last  year  on  g/s ground , normally have little time for  excuses but am inclined to accept a dislocated soft palate may well have been the cause of his  two poor runs last year . Will still back him tomorrow  as  to my mind has  beaten a  much better better opponent in DA than has Kingman so far.

5mm added by Seamus the Famous.

Backed outstrip and Darwin incase this turns into a complete farce ie a furlong and half sprint.