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Juddmonte International York
Juddmonte International York
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By achievements, I mean St Nic or Farrh's best form. Which they produced on more than one occasion.
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I think you will agree Farhh's best win was the Champion Stakes. Where he narrowly beat Ruler of the World. Perhaps you also think Ruler of the World is better than Camelot?
Look at it this way Wickedt. Farhh beat CDA and Ruler of the World narrowly. Ascot St Nic was beaten narrowly by CDA. Meydan St Nic was beaten narrowly by Farhh. York. So that puts Ruler of the World well in the frame with St Nic. Do you also think Ruler of the World is better than Camelot? |
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Sorry for interrupting your "gd" argument lads
 on who is right & which horse was better than another(s). But this has no real relevance on the out come of the Juddmonte a wk on Weds, does it??. Lets get back to the more important subject at hand, the Big race at York "this year"  |
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Yes I think ROTW was better than Camelot.
You still haven't provided a piece of Camelot's form that matches the best shown by Farrh or St Nic. Camelot would not have placed in Farrh's Champion Stakes. |
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What more can be said about the race until we know the final decs? I fancy this and I don't fancy that seems to about sum up the rest of the thread. If anybody has anything more to add they can always chip in.
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"On a line through...."
The most specious form of reasoning ever. You can use it to justify any conclusion you wish. You have all fallen into brigust1's web based on so-called collateral form. Pointless. Boring. Wrong.And a thread killer if ever I saw one. |
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Agree Sandown.
If they want to start a new thread about past horses & who was "the better" knock themselves out. Its got nothing to do with the Big race at hand. Your right figgis, until we know the final decs & the ground, its still a risky ante-p play, with main regards to the fav (odds-on) if he does take his place?? Hopefully we get a fair turn-out for the race & the weather stays fair (gd/f ground) & I can also put my factor "30" sun cream to gd use |
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Yes I think ROTW was better than Camelot. Oh dear.
I think I wrote this before but just in case I will write it again. There is only one race to go on (the Arc) and AOBs comments. Throw into the mix ROTW's Champion Stakes. That is all we have to go on. Camelot was unbeaten until the St Leger where inability to stay, poor ride, doped winner were reasons why the form is suspect. He had colic surgery over the winter and appeared to not recover any form. So I will repeat that we only have one race and AOB's comments to go on. I don't know who is the best but why should I listen to you when I can refer to the form book and listen to AOB. He is a professional with years of experience. I have no idea who you are. And why is it that people like Sandown think the only discussion on a thread is their discussion? If you think it is boring don't come on it. It really isn't that difficult you know. The racing is pretty cr ap but you can always go back to that if you want. Or you can add your two pennies worth. No-one will hold it against you. In fact while you are here Sandown do you think, excluding the favourites, this years Juddmonte looks stronger or weaker than the 2012 race? |
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EG: a nice sunny 4days (not to warm tho) & a few gd winners to pay for the trip & more
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I just want to point out that Gosden only has two entries in the Juddmonte, Eagle Top and Remote.
Eagle Top is also entered in the Great Voltigeur 35 minutes earlier, despite connections' protestations to the contrary, I would n't be that surprised if ET took in the Voltigeur on route to St Leger (never nearer in KGVI and QEII than at the finish!) Remote has nowhere near the level of form normally required to win a race of this nature and will have been off 426 days by race time but given his trainer's midas touch all summer and the ammunition currently at his disposal, Remote would have to be taken seriously if the scenario above plays out and he pitches up here as his trainer's only runner... |
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If they want to start a new thread about past horses & who was "the better" knock themselves out. Its got nothing to do with the Big race at hand
It's got everything to do with it as far as brig is concerned. He believes that Australia is at least the equivalent of Camelot, if not better, (because Aiden says Aus is the best) and Camelot was at least as good as Farhh (are you still following?) who finished 2nd in the 2012 Juddmonte. The 2014 field is weaker than 2012 (he proposes) therefore as Australia is better than Camelot he will certainly win the Juddmonte 2014. Don't blame me this is what brig honestly believes. |
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ReaseHeath, I agree that Remote can be a player. I just haven't mentioned him because I have no idea if he's an intended runner and given his layoff you'd have to be concerned. You're right that his 3yo form wouldn't be good enough but he clocked a seriously good time in that Doncaster handicap and if he's made average improvement from 3 to 4 I certainly think he'd be in with a shout.
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AT have you ever heard the TV presenters saying 'this horse won last time but this is a stronger/weaker race'? We have almost no collateral form to go on so I do think it is another way of looking at it. It isn't the only way obviously but it is another way. And I never brought up Camelot, may I remind you.
Putting it another way if Australia gets stuffed and this race is not a great race, plus they claim this is his ideal distance then how can AOB continue to claim he is his best ever? If the race is an extremely hard race then he still has a point. Coolmore p isses me off more than most on here so if Australia wins I can at least have the satisfaction of winning money and if he losses, in a not great race, I can at least have the satisfaction that it is egg on their faces. |
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In fact while you are here Sandown do you think, excluding the favourites, this years Juddmonte looks stronger or weaker than the 2012 race?
I haven't got the slightest interest in whether it is or isn't. |
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i realise australia looks a pretty good thing here but does anyone think arod has a squeak at the generous 16's
yes he has plenty to find but he does look a progressive colt imo.... there were excuses at york when the ground had gone for him earlier in the campaign and spencer gave him plenty to do that day...then in the derby he hung all the way down the camber and clearly didn't enjoy it imo...the egg and spoon race last time was a nice little confidence booster for the horse and i expect him to come on again...he would have to improve about 7lbs at least to get involved but given fast ground he may just be up to the challenge and i like him moving forwards at this sort of trip... he may just lack the class to win here and is unproven in this grade but that is reflected in the price we are getting, however he may just be good enough to get in the money and is very much a colt to keep on side in the future as he is very unfurnished...australia certainly looks a good thing if running to form but 4-7 is not appealing back off the layoff i won't be playing till i know the ground but anyone else like him |
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" There is only one race to go on (the Arc) and AOBs comments."
Why? Why are you so insistent on using a formline that sees both horses out of their ideal conditions at the end of a long season for them both? It makes absolutely no sense. Neither ran to form, and therefore how they fared against each other is absolutely irrelevant. You are so, so thick Brig. |
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I have never made any secret of the fact that I have followed Australia solely because of what AOB has said. Just the way you may have a bet from a stable employee, jockey etc. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong.
I know on paper his form does not add up but I have committed myself to follow Australia solely because of AOB. In October I backed him to win the 2000 Gns, Derby and Arc. I have subsequently backed him for the Derby and the Arc and I will follow him until he loses. If he is as good as AOB says we will all know and if not then we will all know that as well but at this moment in time he has not let me down and I am prepared to defend him solely on AOB's say so. The sad thing is that people like Wickedt have no other way of communicating except by abusing people. I meet people like him on the building site regularly but they would never say to my face what some on here say. It is unnecessary. |
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Sorry if you're sensitive Brig.
 You'rs just clueless and I now understand why sint and figgis bother to reply! if O'Brien says something it must be true! Trainers wouldn't dare hype up their horses for commercial reasons, unheard of!! |
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Are you into flagellation Brig, your fans seem insistent on continuously taking the whip to you.
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Wickedt I have been around far too long to be sensitive. I think it just proves how limited you are.
And if you read my Coolmore thread you would know what I think about that set up. And if you think I have never criticised the tidal wave of hype that surrounds horses that have never earned it, where have you been? I have never made my bets or the reasons for making the bets anything but abundantly clear and that includes non runners and losers. |
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I'm afraid you are right Felt. In fact you are partly to blame you know. If you hadn't pressured me to back Australia in the first place last year I might not have even been having this conversation.
But it is sad this forum is so unpopulated and I think it is because of the childish abuse some people feel is the only way to get their point over. Well it isn't. I so wish I could meet them face to face but at present that isn't going to happen so I will just think of them as cowards because that's what cowards do. |
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can you tell me a horse that Camelot has beat that franked the form brig?
I still have not had an answer to this question? brig?? |
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Give me clue what you are on about All22.
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why am I speaking a foreign language?
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I recognise the words, they are definitely English. A horse that Camelot beat that franked the form with who? I'm sorry but on it's own it is a meaningless sentence.
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There's no point asking a question like that alleged, because one there isnt any franking of camelot's wins, and two, it doesn't matter because in order to elevate camelot to the standard brig requires, he'll just refer to aidan o'brien saying he's the best he's ever trained, which must put him on par with every decent run his stablemates have produced.
camelot didnt show any form that would beat farrh or cirrus or st nic, but because ruler of the world got close in the champion stakes, camelot must be on par because aidan o'brien says so. camelot must have been able to achieve equal or better to everything st nic did, because aidan o'brien says so. |
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oh I forgot how you do things brig, you would read it like this wouldn't you.
Camelot beat akeed mofeed 7+ lengths akeed beat cirrus des aigles 1 length frankel beat cirrus 1 3/4 lengths so Camelot is 4 1/2 l better than frankel al kazeem beat Camelot 4 l amralah beat al kazeem 4 l  |
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It is a pity you don't read the thread Wickedt. You will see how, through Hermival Camelot has the beating of or is not far away from Farhh, CDA and St Nic.
Just to remind you, because some think collateral form is pointless that it is how ratings are formed and how form works. Camelot beat Hermival in the 2000 Gns and both received a rating base upon that run. Hermival then ran in the St James Palace Stakes and beat Gabrial and both received a rating for that run. Gabrial was beaten by Farhh in the Sussex Stakes and both received a rating for that run. If the ratings people are doing their job properly they will tell you what rating Camelot achieved and what rating Farhh achieved. And on form they should be just about the same. That is not my opinion that is how form and ratings are calculated. According to the Official handicapper Camelot's run in the 2000 Gns was rated 121. Also according to the Official handicapper Farhh's rating for the Sussex Stakes was 122. So, as I said not much between them. Farhh then went on to reach 124 by the end of his career and Camelot was rated 124 after the Derby before his career went wrong. They are not my views they are from the Official handicapper. |
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And to confirm my other point St Nicholas Abbey was rated 124 when he had his accident and sadly lost his life.
So I think you will find I have repeatedly stated that Farhh and St Nicholas Abbey are about the same horse and surprisingly the Official handicapper agrees. Also he thinks that at his best Camelot was as good as Farhh and St Nic. So my point that Camelot could well have won the Juddmonte without Frankel is not as daft as some people on here suggest. |
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I wish i could think that in your heart of hearts you're just on a huge wind up, but i know that's not the case. you just don't have a clue
anyone who has half a brain knows that camelot's derby and guineas were initially overrated. camelot's derby (please tell me what was good about it) was never worthy of a 124 rating. at the time, yes, it may have been possible, but subsequent events have shown otherwise. where his career went wrong he was just found out to be a very, very average (if that) |
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I've just caught up on this thread having been away since Friday - really wish I hadn't now.
There is really only one effective way to repsond to Brigs lunancy: ................................,-~*`¯lllllll`*~,............................................. ..... ...........................,-~*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll¯`*-,.......................................... ......................,-~*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll*-,...................................... ..................,-*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\... .................................. ................;*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~*~-,llllllllllllllllllll\.................................... ................\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/...........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,................................ .................\lllllllllllllllllllll,-*.............`~-~-,...(.(¯`*,`,............................... ...................\llllllllllll,-~*........................)_-\..*`*;..).............................. .....................\,-*`¯,*`)............,-~*`~................../............................... .....................|/.../.../~,......-~*,-~*`;.................../.\.............................. .................../.../..../..../..,-,..*~,.`*~*..................*...\.......................... ... ...................|.../.../..../.*`...\................................)....)¯`~,........... ......... ...................|./..../..../........).........)`*~-,............../.....|..)...`~-,.............. .................././.../....,*`-,.....`-,....*`....,---......\...../...../..|..........¯```*~-,,,, .................(............)`*~-,.....`*`.,-~*.,-*.......|.../..../..../...............\.......... ..................*-,.......`*-,...`~,..``.,,,-*.............|.,*...,*....|.................\......... ......................*,.........`-,....)-,..................,-*`...,-*.....(`-,..............\........ ........................f`-,........`-,/...*-,___,,-~*.....,-*......|....`-,...............\....... |
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I think the Racing Post had the same differential Brig.
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Thank you Dun. It must be the school holidays.
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I will be amazed if any of you contributing to this so-called "debate" still have the will to live
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The fool has ruined every thread he gets involved with. Trust me brig, I would happily tell you to your face what a twunt you are. But i'd also suggest in the real world you wouldn't act such the antagonistic, smug fool that you do on here with internet security. You're still running at a loss this season so it takes some ego not to wind your neck in.
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It's become hell, Sandown. Nightmare threads now.
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I will be amazed if any of you contributing to this so-called "debate" still have the will to liveLaugh
its hard but im trying |
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Brig's memory is either gone totally or he started betting 12 months ago. St Nick was hyped to the rafters, just as much as Camelot. He went of a shorter price for the Guineas than Camelot. He was Even money. Once again your lack of knowledge is shown up, and this is very basic, simple stuff to get correct. How can anyone take you seriously is beyond me tbh and I said that last October on another thread you posted warped nonsense on.
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