Sin I suggest you read my post of 9.34 yesterday morning. That works out at about 6 hours before the race. That may be after timing to you. I don't know what time zone you live in.

Pedro I agree about Treve and can also see STS doing really well at stud but you must take into consideration there has only been a couple of top class racehorses in this decade so he is bound to attract the top mares. Certainly means the owner breeders getting the top races again.

yes Brig, the one where you could not decide between the first 3 in the market, and then it so happens you ''picked'' the right one when the result is known. Shameful. No mention of the Hannon 2yo either. More shameful. Good luck to you though, you'll need it.

Trading Leather and Magician were obviously beaten before stamina became an issue.

I would've thought a classic non staying performance was travelling well on the bridle then finding nothing, they were both struggling and going nowhere before the 2f pole. It's easy to say they weren't good enough after the race and to say Trading Leather finished where expected but he finished 2 lengths behind Mukhadram in the Eclipse, I didn't see anyone before the race say they expected him to finish nearly 8 lengths behind him yesterday.

As far as the Arc goes, Taghrooda obviously has the ability to at least go close, however to my mind there has to be a strong possibility yesterday's race will have taken a lot out of her. Sure she travelled well during most of the race and the winning margin suggests it was easy, but when the main contenders were really going for it around the 2f pole she was in a battle, albeit one she may have always looked like winning, it was only inside the final furlong when the pace was slowing considerably that she got on top and went away. I'd be very surprised if she didn't have a hard race there. Also it's generally difficult to maintain form between both races anyway. Having said that, she surpassed my expectations yesterday and she might do it again but I still couldn't back her for the Arc.

Both TL and Magician were handy at the two pole

Both horses had been niggled before the 3f pole then ridden vigorously for a furlong just to go 2-3 lengths past the moderate pacemaker Leitir Mor at the 2f pole, who had been running at an obviously unsustainable gallop even for a good horse. I don't think either horse's performance can conveniently be explained by not staying.

Quite right Figgis. In fact the expectation was Trading Leather would reverse form with Mukhadram over the extra 2f as punters backed him from 14/1 on track into 8/1.

So on past form you believe in a Gp1 10f race Trading Leather and Magician would have to be hard ridden to finish 3 lengths ahead of Leitir Mor, after that horse had set an unsustainable early pace?

There we have it Figgis. You have been told in no uncertain terms what a non-stayer is. Brigust is right, you are wrong.

Incidentally, Trading Leather's fast run Irish Derby win never happened.

So on past form you believe in a Gp1 10f race

That is exactly why they finished where they did.

The question wasn't about where they finished at the post, it was concerning the 2f pole.

Figgis people disagree.

It's a good thing they do.

I won't be in a hurry to back either Trading Leather or Magician in 12 furlong races in Europe any time soon

You still haven't explained your reasoning on what had happened at the 10f point if it was simply a case of them not staying an extra 2f?

Another non-stayer,Kingman,runs on Wednesday

I never said I was right, I said their poor performances can't be simply explained as not staying, and they still haven't been explained. I said before the race that Magician had a hard race last time, so I was half expecting him to run below par, although you still never know just how much below par and I didn't expect him to be as disappointing as that. Trading Leather's display was more of a surprise, as even though I didn't fancy him I thought he could run on for a place or close to that, I certainly wouldn't have expected him to be beaten nearly 11 lengths.

In every other sport it's accepted that athletes can underperform on any given day. The likes of Nadal and Messi don't always perform to their best standards, there doesn't have to be any major  noticeable physical problem but some days they just won't physically be as good as others. Racehorses are the same. Except with racehorses people always look to outside factors for excuses, ground, trip, etc, as it neatly fits the idea that racehorses run like machines it's just external influences that get in the way. I've found racehorses are usually more consistent than most human athletes but they're still susceptible to physical ups and downs like any of us. That is why explaining form in terms of "A beat B by 3 lengths in one race, B beat C by 1 length in another, therefore A should beat C by 4 lengths in this race" is assuming one hell of a lot. If the same explanations were used in football it would be laughable.

Hello figgis,no use of sectionals in this country until the last 2 years or so,my own generation and most certainly brigusts,have had to use our eyes rightly or wrongly? brigust just stating his point of view and you yours!

AOB said he thought the ground was against Magician. I walked on the course and I cannot think the ground was at fault. He may have had a hard race last time but in my book he didn't stay. I may be wrong but that's what I think.
I don't always look at outside factors. I thought Frankel ran below par because of his hard race in the 2000 Gns. And you needn't explain to me about form. It is exactly the same with ratings. You make allowances when allowances are to be made. It's no different.

And I explained the reason being a certain non stayer empties quickly just as an athlete hits the wall. We are all entitled to our opinions. I don't question you on yours. You are entitled to them.

yes we have our eyes,so when we witness horses falling into holes,we can surmise reasons,and very valid point made by brigust,because we are not privileged to inside information.

Many alternative methods of dissecting a race,looking at yesterdays race Telescope is two time Group2 winner over 12f but not yet made the grade at Group1 level,and lacks any sort of quality form over 10f,Mukhadram a 3 time 10f Group winner and proven Group1 winner on one occasion,it was quite easy to surmise that these two were either not good enough or would not stay before the race?(now that is aftertiming)

And you still had change out of a farthing

Totally agree brigust,the growth in Group1 status can only make for uncompetitive racing, of no use to anyone. I am for more competition in the races we have already,if anything we may think about cutting a few of the events from the racing calender?

I know. One run in a Group 1 and a second place finish. Ageing? Really? He has just posted his best ever RPR.