King George IV & Queen Anne Stakes 26th July

Latter day horses retired early? Like
Zarkava,
Intello,

Or recent Derby winners like
Shaamit,
Benny the Dip,
Oath,
Sinndar,
Galileo
Kris Kin
Motivator
Authorized
Sea the Stars
Pour Moi

Is that what you mean?

No, I mean inconsistency, as stated.

Or Carnegie, Pientre Celebre, Lammtarra and Dalakhani of recent Arc winners. Is that what you mean about retiring early?

And the earlier horses where it is glossed over were who exactly?

Racing Post Standard 2.28.90.

You think a Gp1 is 0.77 secs faster than standard?

Ground described as Good (GSft places on round course)

TL wants GFm.

I don't actually use RP standards myself but there will usually be some similarities between them. The time stacks up well with other Gp1 races run on good to firm or the fast side of good. Unless you're comparing with record times which is never a good idea.

Ground described as Good (GSft places on round course)

Since when have official descriptions been the last word? The clerk was calling the course good for the Royal meeting, I don't think many would agree with him.

TL wants GFm.

At worst the ground could've been no slower than good. His best run as a 2yo was winning the Autumn stakes on good to soft. He ran well to finish 2nd in the Dante on good ground and he ran a good race in 3rd behind The Fugue in last year's Irish Champion Stakes. on good ground after a recent downpour. I can't accept he would get thrashed 11 lengths just because there was no firm in the ground.

Unless he didn't stay of course and emptied.

And the earlier horses where it is glossed over were who exactly?

Erm, Dancing Brave?

Unless he didn't stay of course and emptied.

And struggled to pass his trailblazing pacemaker before stamina even became an issue.

Goodness. Brig not only forgets what he writes but doesn't actually understand it either. Unreal.

When you consider it was the Leitir Mors first run over further than a mile PLUS he has been rated 117 compared to Trading Leathers 119 it may not have been such a surprise it took him a while to get by.

Trading Leather was 2nd last year behind Novelist when the course record was broken. He stays 12f.

Your mate Dancing Brave eh? I've never criticised Dancing Brave's owners for retiring him early. What are you on about?

Sin do you understand the concept that all horses stay 12f?

Brig, do you think your opinion is always correct even in the face of evidence?

One thing I know for sure is that I understand far more than yourself.

And do you understand what quick times, mean? e.g last years King George. Honestly!

When you consider it was the Leitir Mors first run over further than a mile PLUS he has been rated 117 compared to Trading Leathers 119 it may not have been such a surprise it took him a while to get by.

That would be a plausible explanation if LM had been given an easy time in front off a slow pace, a tenuous one if he'd been ridden optimally in a truly run race, but in yesterday's circumstances? Not for me.

the distances behind once you go past the first 3 should not be taken too literally the jockeys will have given up by then even if they would never admit it

Your mate Dancing Brave eh? I've never criticised Dancing Brave's owners for retiring him early. What are you on about?

Is this a serious post?

Yes it is a serious post? You obviously have all of my posts since I joined in 2001 so it would be interesting to read what I wrote. Feel free to show me what you mean.

It may not be the right answer but Leitir Mor was leading approaching the furlong marker in Toronado's Sussex Stakes and was nutted by Gordon Lord Byron over a mile at Leopardstown and that's a stiff track. So having an easy time on his own may have helped him get that bit further before he capitulated.

Inconsistency ffs!

having an easy time on his own may have helped him

You honestly saw yesterday's race as him having an easy time in front?

Do you understand what fast times mean in the context of a race Brig?

Well nothing took him on so considering he's used to running against sprinters and milers I'm sure he felt things were a bit easier. Mukhadram made particular point of not getting into a duel and pounced when he could. I don't think it took Trading Leather any time at all getting past him. Nothing in that.

No I don't understand what fast times mean Sin. Enlighten me.

Ground the biggest factor to fast times(goes without saying),pacemakers do also effect clean run races,but I remember coe and ovett at their prime,and class usually came through but not always(pace duel),coe was the best,injured young,made a terrific comeback,but never quite as good as before injury.

Leitir Mors  worth another visit overv 10f in a weaker event,they may have found a trip

times are only a reasonably useful guide in Uk racing it's not like in the US - over here the stall and rails are moved about randomly and distances only approximate.

and the Trainers give off the cuff orders too jockeys who make up their own orders at times(drinks all around)!

Think Steve Ovett preferred it good to soft.

Old man kept his form very well,never likely to see their likes again to soon.(great time for uk athletics)

Watch it MJ, those rose tinted specs. You will be saying Ali was great next.

,before we retire to real life,one question brigust,did the major weigh his horses? I have an interest in the natural weight of race horses but no information,is that information important?

No I won't, Brig. If you don't understand them now or can at least see what they indicate after 40 odd years of following the sport then judging by your previous on here you sure as well won't starting listening or learning now. If anything, it confirms what I said last October on the Farhh discussion, and that was your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Massive gap in your knowledge when assessing races and horses. One eyed, in fact. There are many parts to a puzzle! Anyway, laters.

Yes he did MJ. I'm not sure when he had the scales installed but I have BG's weights somewhere. I think a horses weight is more important than sectionals but that's me I suppose. Stupid.

Brigust absolutely brilliant,if you got the weight could you post them up,a real piece of history and possible missing piece for historians in the future assessing one of if not the best racehorse of all time,if by any chance you have his weights before a certain race date etc even better

Sky Lantern apparently lost 20 kilos in weight between her Royal Ascot run and Falmouth run this season.

I will look them out MJ. I have loads of stuff put away from when we moved here so it may take some time. When I go through it I will message you.

Thank you brigust, I think maybe one day they belong in a horse racing museum,our ignorance. at their importance. goes without saying, but. one day I hope they gain more significance, maybe one day Frankel weights will be known?, but the Brigadier will do for me! Great stuff! B-)

Everything I have should be in a museum. Race cloths, bridle, 3 sets of shoes, hair, teeth, presentations, signed racecards, signed photos, porcelain sculptures, films, newspapers you name it. I must get it all out sometime. I've even got Sea Bird 11's Arc racecard in a box among many others.

I am tempted to ask for objects,but I feel one of the race courses or museums would be most interested,in the public domain,a better place than with some mug from Wolverhampton

but still interested for a print of those weights

I won't forget but it may take some time. Having a new house built at the moment so everything is put away. I'm planning a room specifically for what I have. I won't forget when I put my hands on it MJ.

Figgis you would have an argument with your toes in a room on your own if you could.

I already posted why TL ran so poor. Go back and read it. Jim Bolger his trainer has stated in interviews the horse is better on GFm going.

His two wins as an older horse are on GFm.

Roger, regarding arguing, all my points to you have been in direct reply to your posts questioning what I've said about race times, standard times, etc. If you're happy with Bolger's explanation and the clerk's description as reasons why your bet lost then I don't see the problem.

So you are saying, the clerk is wrong, there was no good to soft places on the round course.

Jim Bolger is wrong, TL is equally effective on Good to Soft.

Clerks are often wrong, in fact they're notorious for giving wrong descriptions out. As for this particular clerk, how in the world was the ground described as good for the opening day of the Royal meeting? Even after all the evidence on day 1 he still refused to call it good to firm until after the first race on day 2. Whether there were any good to soft places on the round course, probably there were, but they weren't enough to impact greatly on the time of the race, it wasn't a good to soft time, so there can't have been that many soft places. We're not talking about a horse running a few pounds below it's best, we're talking about a horse that was absolutely knackered.

fair enough. I agree the ground was gfm on day 1.

and Jim Bolger?

Jim Bolger probably making an excuse for the new owners, Godolphin.

on the straight course.

good on round.

Roger, I was a fan of the horse last year and I wouldn't say his performance on rain softened good ground against The Fugue was any worse than his other efforts, I don't know how it was officially rated but I'd say it was as good as his best. To me Bolger seems quite tough on his horses early on and I don't think it helps them as older horses. The ground was slower on the round course yesterday but he was given a patient ride, I didn't see him struggling or looking uncomfortable at that stage, he didn't appear to have taken much out of himself but on turning into the straight on the firmer ground he had to be hard ridden just to pass his pacemaker, who was dropping like a stone. I'm not saying I know the answer but for me I just don't think TL was on form yesterday whatever the ground, neither was Magician.

This seems a rather futile argument - whatever the going Trading Leather and Magician were never going to trouble the judge

he only got a SF of 111 from me for that Champion Stakes.

122 for 2nd to DEc of War, nd 117 for 2nd to Mukhadram they are Raceform numbers.

All his big numbers are on GFm.

This seems a rather futile argument - whatever the going Trading Leather and Magician were never going to trouble the judge

Surely analysing form goes further than what makes the winning print?

Also Magician was a fairly short price in the place market, TL was backed into 8/1 in the win market so I assume he was too, not many people were confident on here that they wouldn't make the frame.

maybe but these two are well below the class necessary to be a factor in a race like yesterdays and well beaten horses are well beaten horses - the distances involved become rather academic as we don't know how much they've eased up. incidentally if TL can't handle ground like yesterday they might as well give up with it.

Just watched a re-run of the race on RUK. TL & Magician were being pushed and kicked way before the 2f pole. Seriously Brig, what a load of nonsense. ''Handy''

My view differs from most. I thought the race fell apart perfectly for Taghrooda, due  Ryan Moore doing too much too soon. He was hellbent on trying to keep within 4l of the tear away pacesetter. Admittedly the softer ground pre home straight didn't help, but, after his initial kick to take the lead, Taghrooda was perfectly placed to swoop and go past A tiring Telescope. On the plus side, it was a very good effort to give 15lbs on ground softer than ideal. He is no forlorn hope in the Arc given fast conditions. 25/1 ew already taken.

Taghrooda is arguably the best middle distance horse in Britain. But, the Arc is a worry. Impressive in the Pretty Polly and the Oaks,IMO, due to the long finishing straight allowing her time to find her balance and stride. At Ascot, it took her 1.5 furlongs to make up 2/3 lengths on Telescope. Longchamp has a relatively short run in and a false finishing straight which will not suit her running style.

Mukhadaram yet again failed at Ascot, though not disgraced. Once again showing that he is a grinder and not a finisher. York in 3 weeks will suit him better, but will this race have left his mark on him?

Trading Leather is possibly on a downward curve, didn't have his going and looks a better prospect over 10f.

Magician was another who didn't have his ground. Another who yet again failed at Ascot. 10f , left handed and fast ground are ideal. ( why no international entry? ) but, when o Brien goes into a group 1 race mob handed, it's a case of throwing arrers hoping 1 will hit the bull. When he sends 1 horse or 1 and a pacemaker, then he is expecting a big run, so this run can be put down as disappointing.

Eagle Top ran a fair race, but doesn't look group 1 class, whilst Romsdal will be better suited to the rose of Lancaster over 10f at Haydock.

From what I read 2day in the RP, Telescope is being aimed at the BC Turf.
Cant have your take on the race "fell apart" thing about Taghrooda`s KG win, she is just to gd for them & is a high class filly.
As for the going, on times it was no slower than gd, poss a bit loose on top, thanks to over watering , maybe that's why 1or2 ran below their best, among other reasons.
All in all, even if all the runners had run to their best form, we would still have the same winner & runner-up imo.

Sin I'm not going through it again. If I remember correctly as they turned in the pace started to quicken and they all started going for it with the exception of the winner. Two out all of the runners were within shouting distance. Mukhadram and Telescope were a couple in front of the rest who you could throw a blanket over. Three quicken away and left Magician, Trading Leather and Romsdal for dead. These three continued to lose ground at a rate of knots as the line approached. You could call it nonsense if you want that is your right. Or wrong as the case may be.

I'd be very surprised if the ground at Longchamp turns out quicker than what Telescope had at the weekend. It might be good, but its rarely quicker than that. I don't see the ground as an issue for anything in the race on Saturday tbh.

Brig, you are factually incorrect. Nowt to do with my opinion. It's what actually happened.

https://www.timeform.com/Racing/Articles/Ratings_Update_A_Queen_crowned_in_t...

I thought that the final margin of victory confirmed that Taghrooda is exceptional, at least at the weight for age scale in July. Time will tell how well she will progress as the scale comes down but as she is not likely to race at 4yo, she will always get a lot of weight from 4yo colts.

The only possible change in result from Ascot in my (biassed) opinion is that given a different ride, Eagle Top could have finished second. I still don't think he would beat Tag though. With a more forward ride and more experience he could still be a Group 1 winner.

Eagle tops run in the KG was solid enough for a lightly raced colt.
Looks a real stayer to me & would take all the beating in the Leger if going down that route, but from what I have read in the press he is not going down that route?
We shall see.

I did say that I thought it was very likely Taghrooda had a hard race in the KG and I believe that was the reason for her defeat today, not that I backed Tapestry unfortunately.

runs of Telescope and Mukhadram did suggest king george form not all that

Yes it looked like Taghrooda tired and Tapestry worried her out of the race. I might have overrated her after the KG - Mukhadram and Telescope hardly advertised the form yesterday. Still an almost unexolicable result - Tapestry has done nothing before and will maybe do nothing again - just hit a sweet spot today.

agree figgis race certainly left its mark as you eluded on one thread tbf

i would argue they did pull clear today though and they have always thought the winner to be very good but you would still of expected her to have won...will be interesting if they took the winner to the filly and mare turf later in the season, she is certainly going the right way

i wonder if they can get taghrooda back for the arc now fresh or whether her season is coming to an end...we will see

Also think the horse hit the front much too early - must have been 4f out.

sounds stupid given she was 1/5 but she did n't do a lot wrong - looked to be going better than Tapestry when she took it up and was probably in front long enough - although Moore was correct in stating that Tag had ample time to fight back (she did try!)

would n't put me off her in the Arc but would want to see oppo and draw before thinking about a bet...

Mukhadram was obviously below his best yesterday. It's easy to say the KG form wasn't great in hindsight but she beat Telescope by 3 lengths, Australia only extended that margin by just over a length yesterday while being harder ridden and people seemed to be enthusiastic about that performance. In any case I don't think many would've backed Tapestry to do what Taghrooda did in the KG.

I backed Tapestry without Tahgrooda who could have done with more pace in the race , it would have taken real nerve for Hanigan to get her up there earlier in the race  but it may have paid off , she was beaten in a two Horse sprint to the
line , sad for horse and jockey .

be interesting to see where they go with Tapestry...

full sister to John F Kennedy

To my eyes it looked more of a case of Taghrooda running very tired late on rather than the winner doing anything special.

hit the front too soon and idled

I think the ground and track just suited the 'quicker' winner better. York is like that and Taghrooda beat the rest a long way so if she had done that without the winner everyone would have been happy. The winner was favourite for the 1000 Gns so is quick.

She ran a bit flat but her Oaks and KG wins were hardly outstanding bits of for, and Tapestry may just be the better filly now she has come to hand.

To back up my view that it was more of a case of Taghrooda running below form at York rather than Tapestry doing anything special I'm laying Tapestry in the Matron today, not that she can't win but there are a few here that can get the better of her on a going day and she's too short in my opinion.

Seeing as she seemed to need every yard of the 12f at York it's strange to see her dropped to a mile.

Yes, that too, plus to me she looked to have quite a hard race at York.

Not sure what they were thinking of.

As I stated to dear old Brigust before he went off at people for daring to suggest Australia would running in the Irish Derby and not the Eclipse, Irish trainers support Irish races.. that's why Tapestry was running over 1 mile.

I agree the facts show AOB is supporting Irish racing at the expense of his horses in the hope that he and Coolmore are recognised as some kind of saints. While in actual fact they is standing on the heads of the Irish while pretending to drag them out of the water. Coolmore is worse for Irish racing than anywhere else so why not put their weight behind it? They run their horses half fit (the list is endless), on the wrong ground (Magician) and over the wrong trips (Tapestry) just to support Irish racing. What a crock of crap. No other trainer would waste their bullets in the same way. Camelot never got over the heavy ground in the Irish Derby, Magician hasn't shown any form since and we will have to wait and see what it has done to Tapestry who is supposed to be fragile at best.
Cowboy outfit imo.

I heard the post race comments on tv that Tapestry was beaten because of the trip, for me this was laughable, she went out like a light after a slow early gallop with something obviously more amiss than the sharper trip. Anyone who thinks she would've run her race with another four furlongs seems to have been watching a different race than I was.

I never said I thought Tapestry should have won. I am saying she should not have run. AOB's own words were that the trip was too short but he wanted to support the meeting. He said the same about Magician in the Tattersall's Gold Cup about Magician. The going was totally against him but he wanted to support the Gr1 status of the race. How committed is the trainer to winning the race? Can you imagine any other trainer sacrificing a Gr1 horse simply to support a race or a meeting? Had Magician, Tapestry and Ruler of the World been trained anywhere else would their profile have been different? I think they would. And the same goes for Australia.

Not sure I  totally agree brigust,so many grade 1 events now most trainers try to avoid each other,they even pick their ground these days,I think they care less about the way the public receive this sort of racing,and they leave it to the breeders and ratings guys to best sell their product?

Australia not in the Arc is a loss,A St Ledger winner going to the race with a live chance,especially if ground comes up soft,just about tells the true story of the race this year.

That's OK MJ. The whole idea of a forum is to discuss diverse views.
Look at Tapestry. AOB said he got her all wrong for the 1000gns. She was favourite ffs and finished 17th of 17. Her stable companion was 11/1 and finished 14th. Perhaps I could add that Australia wasn't right for the 2000 Gns and nor was War Command.

AOBs comments after the race were: Tapestry was not in good enough condition and should never have run in Sunday's 1,000 Guineas, trainer Aidan O'Brien admitted on Monday when reflecting on her disappointing display in the Newmarket Classic.

He then ran her at Ascot where she clearly wasn't back. The Irish Oaks her saddle slipped and she won the Yorkshire Oaks beating Taghrooda. Could you name a trainer who would then bring her back to a mile 3 weeks after winning at York considering her fragile constitution? I suggest any other trainer would be seriously thinking about the Arc for which she has been entered.

It's a similar story with the planning a running of Magician and Australia. I think most trainers would have won the Derby, then the Eclipse or/and the king George then the Arc. What we have is a horse whose best form is at 12f but all we hear is a mile and 10f. Did you see these amazing gears he has in the Juddmonte or Irish Champion Stakes? He could end up running in a weakened QE11 ffs. And, as you said, Kingston Hill could win the Arc. It doesn't make any sense.

Ducking the Arc with Australia would be cowardly in the extreme - it's the natural Autumn race for the Derby winner and always have been. If he won the Arc he'd be up there with STS and Mill Reef - win the Champion Stakes and he's another New Approach.

yes brigust it does not make much sense,throw into that,TGG is also not going too the Arc? yet he is now more proven with hold up tactics than Kingston Hill(who did run a great race too early in the Derby)

Just doing at little bit more race reading this morning,and you find Kingston Hill was most disappointing going right handed at Sandown in the eclipse,which would have to be major problem given he was held up that day and beat by older horses giving the WFA? now the picture becomes very dark.

Cannock chase?

Kingston Hill was most disappointing going right handed at Sandown


Why look beyond distance/ground for reasons? Course as a reason is very, very speculative imo.

Figgis

Mukhadram looks a 7 lb better horse going right handed,Kingston Hill ran a shocker in the eclipse,and to be honest I thought Australia was not great in the Irish Derby?

Excuse me figgis, those last comments intended for Sandown

MJ

I wouldn't argue that course preference can be important but in the case of KH the trip and ground factors were huge imo. For me, it was the wrong race for him. Sandown is not a course where horses get unbalanced because there are no downhill streches (unlike Epsom) or ridges (unlike newmarket Rowley, Ripon) and the bend into the straight is not that sharp. I haven't looked at the video again but why don't you check out the Eclipse again to see if KH was changing his legs al ot or leading on the near fore instead of the off-fore which going right handed requires.

As to the other examples you mention, I believe you are correct about Mukhadram and as to Australia again check it out. It hasn't occured to me that might be a problem. I just think that the horse has not lived up to the fanfare.

I wouldn't argue that course preference can be unimportant

http://youtu.be/NCa1lhlK51M  (Eclipse)

considering he is held up 7-9 off the pace the reaction was slow to pick up,but I do agree the trip well wrong.

http://youtu.be/D1OdO3JRMqQ  (TERCENTENARY STAKES (GROUP 3)  Cannock Chase)

Would this horse be out of place in a Arc?

http://youtu.be/6MJ4hKqcj8I  (Free Eagle)