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sintonian
03 Jul 14 20:32
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Date Joined: 21 Sep 04
| Topic/replies: 28,178 | Blogger: sintonian's blog
7/4 Tele
5/2 Magician
5/1 Eagle Top
11/2 Taghrooda
6/1 Kingston Hill
10/1 Mukhadram
10/1 ROTW
12/1 Gospel Choir
12/1 Trading Leather
25/1 bar

On prices nothing immediately jumps out with the exception of Taghrooda at 11/2, but there is enough doubt to leave the price alone as the Irish Oaks is on the same weekend. She certainly wouldn't be out of place in this race and if she runs would go off favourite imo.

Telescope's form figs over 12f on GF are 11 and perhaps the soft ground this season behind Noble Mission was all against him. In any case, that form is very solid. Not sure he should be 7/4 though.

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Replies: 661
By:
sintonian
When: 03 Jul 14 20:33
The Eclipse this weekend will have a bearing on the market/runners etc ..
By:
A_T
When: 03 Jul 14 20:39
really poor field this used to be one of the highlights of the flat season
By:
sintonian
When: 03 Jul 14 20:48
Yep maybe not the strongest renewal ever. No way AOB will run Australia against Magician or Ruler of the World. It looks a decent renewal without being spectacular imo. Derby winner (ROTW) Breeders Cup & Ire Guineas ( Magician) and a couple of improvers in Eagle Top, 3yo and Gospel Choir 4yo. Taghrooda would add some spice to it.

Brown Panther may run according to connections.
By:
sintonian
When: 03 Jul 14 20:49
Anything from France/Germany ...
By:
alleged22
When: 03 Jul 14 20:50
im quite excited tbh

if 5 of the top 7 in the betting participate its the race of the season so far imo
By:
sintonian
When: 03 Jul 14 20:53
4yo colts have to give 3yo fillies 15lb that's why Taghroodha would be a big player.
By:
sintonian
When: 06 Jul 14 10:30
Mukhadram now a 6/1 chance and heads here next.
By:
sintonian
When: 06 Jul 14 10:39
No idea at all if she runs, but if she does I reckon she goes off near favourite so i've taken a win bet at 7/1 on Taghrooda with sly-bet.

No decision has been made yet or discussed (yeah right) according to Paul Hanagan just now on ATR, but given John Gosden is just in the lead for the trainers title here, and the owner still has Tarfasha to run in Ireland, and there is also the possibility of getting her preferred ground over here, i've taken the risk. Taghrooda has only had 3 runs and could still be improving. Why not have a crack at the colts getting 15lb for a massively prize?
By:
Masterminded
When: 06 Jul 14 13:57
Would be Interesting if she shows up but it's a big if when you think Mukhadram is probably going to turn up here. Good luck though!
By:
sintonian
When: 06 Jul 14 14:34
That he will. Owner has been known to have more than one runner in the past and I don't think you could be guaranteed of Muk's stamina? He'll go close though.
By:
sintonian
When: 06 Jul 14 14:59
And as has been pointed out by Miller, Johnny G is going to supplement Eagle Top so perhaps she won't run. Anyhow.. different owners etc etc.
By:
sintonian
When: 06 Jul 14 15:40
Mukhadram's connections are to give the King George VI And Queen Elizabeth Stakes serious consideration after the five-year-old gained a first Group One success in the Coral-Eclipse.


King George VI And Queen Elizabeth Stakes. Click here to bet.

Mukhadram could tackle the King George
Related ContentMukhadram delivers EclipseEclipse video replayThe Fugue eyes NassauWatch top live sports events with Sky TicketsSky Bet: Best Odds Guaranteed
In the immediate aftermath of Saturday's triumph at Sandown, trainer William Haggas said he would love to give Mukhadram a try over a mile and a half in the Ascot midsummer highlight on July 26 if he can get the blessing of owner Sheikh Hamdan Al Maktoum.

Profiles Mukhadram
The question will certainly be asked after Mukhadram took the 10-furlong contest by two lengths from last year's Irish Derby hero Trading Leather, with other top-notch performers like Kingston Hill, The Fugue and Night Of Thunder well beaten.

"I haven't had a proper chat with Sheikh Hamdan, but William is very keen to go to the King George. That's a very obvious target," said Sheikh Hamdan's racing manager, Angus Gold.

"William himself has always felt he wanted to give him a go at a mile and a half. I have no doubt he will stay a mile and a half.

"On his pedigree I'd be surprised if he doesn't stay. Whether he will be as effective as he is at a mile and a quarter is another matter.

"We'll just have to see how the horse comes out of it and then ask Sheikh Hamdan if he wants to go up to a mile and a half or if he wants to keep him for the Juddmonte International (at York next month) and other top mile and a quarter races.

"He's an older horse that's had a few niggly problems and you have to run them when they are in good shape and going forward. At the moment he's in a good place and will have got some confidence now.

"He's a horse that gives everything every time and only ever goes down fighting. If he's in good form leading up to the King George, it's going to be a huge temptation.

"It's a fabulous race to win. Let's see what shape it looks like taking, see who's going to turn up and talk to Sheikh Hamdan.

"This horse seems to like going right-handed and has run his best races at Sandown and Ascot. He nearly nicked a Prince of Wales's there last year.

"The King George is certainly under consideration."
By:
sintonian
When: 06 Jul 14 16:01
Sly-bet are only offering 7/1 on Flintshire. Laughable.
By:
A_T
When: 06 Jul 14 20:23
Be a shame if Mukhadram runs at the expense of the Oaks winner who is a much more interesting horse.
By:
Graeme83
When: 06 Jul 14 21:03
Yeah she's very interesting. Reads the readers digest and watches game of thrones. Sometimes it's best to bring these fillies along that bit slower. She hasn't enough experience. The Irish oaks would give her a chance to pick another nice race, and then have things maped out afterwards.
By:
ReaseHeath
When: 06 Jul 14 23:13
couple of random thoughts, ROTW appears to be AWOL.

I just wonder if AOB might let Leading Light take his chance here?
By:
alleged22
When: 07 Jul 14 09:05
taghrooda going for the oaks.


Gosden also confirmed that his unbeaten Investec Oaks winner Taghrooda would aim to follow up her Epsom win in the Irish equivalent on July 19 at the Curragh.

"She might as well stay against the fillies while she can," he said.
By:
sintonian
When: 07 Jul 14 09:41
Ah well. A quick way to toss away 2pts. Crazy My bad.
By:
sintonian
When: 07 Jul 14 09:42
Nothing has been said yet on ROTW since he was withdrawn from the Coronation Cup 24hrs earlier. An update would be good ..
By:
sintonian
When: 07 Jul 14 10:49
Maybe we should just be looking at the obvious for this race. The POW looked a strong renewal beforehand and the form has now been franked a couple of times with Mukhadram winning the Eclipse and Parish Hall nearly winning a Group 3 who was 6 lengths further back that day. Magician will be at his best over 12f on quick ground.
By:
sintonian
When: 07 Jul 14 11:24
Btw, Irish Oaks is 1 week before the King George not on the same weekend!
By:
Figgis
When: 07 Jul 14 11:38
Really think Coolmore are missing a trick here, as I can't see an older horse capable of giving 12lbs to Australia over this trip. Telescope is no Harbinger despite comparisons being made afterwards. He may have looked similarly impressive in taking the same race but ran nothing like as fast, actually I make him just a typical winner of the race. I reckon Australia is at least as good as Galileo and this task looks no more difficult than when that horse took on Fantastic Light. The task became much more difficult when he faced the same horse over 10f later in the season in receipt of only 7lbs.
By:
sintonian
When: 07 Jul 14 11:48
Trouble is Figgis that operation has so many horses they have to try and set them different targets. AOB could run about 4 or 5 in this with varying degrees of chances if he wanted too.
By:
Figgis
When: 07 Jul 14 11:53
Sint, I assume they think waiting for the Irish Champion Stakes will give him an easier option, possibly it could but I wouldn't take it as a given. 12lbs is a massive advantage for a good Derby winner at this time of the year, in fact I'd say there's enough evidence over years gone by to suggest it's pretty much a penalty kick for a decent Derby winner.
By:
harry callaghan
When: 07 Jul 14 16:16
Really think Coolmore are missing a trick here, as I can't see an older horse capable of giving 12lbs to Australia over this trip. Telescope is no Harbinger despite comparisons being made afterwards. He may have looked similarly impressive in taking the same race but ran nothing like as fast, actually I make him just a typical winner of the race.


figgis i do wish you'd stop with this sort of one-upmanship...

harbinger certainly didn't achieve as much as telescope did imo in his hardwicke victory?? why keep trying to get a victory out of it, when it simply isn't true at this stage?? he ran an identical time, in fact i have telescope running faster the last 2 furlongs over the same ground covered

how do you know he won't progress again to do what harbinger did in his george...both share a similar profile imo but you keep trying to get a victory out of something that hasn't actually happened yet or was the victory over the slow boat duncan so much better than what telescopes massacre of hillstar achieved?? it certainly wasn't unless your clock shows something different??

i certainly don't think it was and the going stick says telescope ran on 8.4 round and 9.4 straight whereas harbinger ran on 9.1 round and 10.1...

so just explain how he is so much better as i am very confused, add to which telescope carried 1 pound more his day in the hardwicke

so just to clarify we are talking before harbinger or in this case telescope have ran in the george just to stop the back tracking
By:
Figgis
When: 07 Jul 14 16:22
figgis i do wish you'd stop with this sort of one-upmanship...

How is it one-upmanship? I've not said anybody else is wrong to back the horse, I just don't believe he's as good and Coolmore shouldn't be feared of running Australia against him, in my view.

so just to clarify we are talking before harbinger or in this case telescope have ran in the george just to stop the back tracking

No backtracking from me. In the 2010 KG thread on here I posted Harbinger was a lump on job against Workforce et al.
By:
harry callaghan
When: 07 Jul 14 17:19
Really think Coolmore are missing a trick here, as I can't see an older horse capable of giving 12lbs to Australia over this trip. Telescope is no Harbinger despite comparisons being made afterwards. He may have looked similarly impressive in taking the same race but ran nothing like as fast, actually I make him just a typical winner of the race.

How is it one-upmanship? I've not said anybody else is wrong to back the horse, I just don't believe he's as good and Coolmore shouldn't be feared of running Australia against him, in my view.


telescope hasn't achieved what harbinger has yet but that isn't your argument that you want credit for...it is the comparison between the 2 races that your saying harbinger achieved so much more on the clock, when he actually did not, he achieved less

to say you know harbinger was a far better and faster horse at the same stage is folly when comparing the 2 hardwicke races and you must know this through times?? can we clear this part up?

it is the comparison between the 2 races that your saying harbinger achieved so much more on the clock, when he actually did not...
By:
Figgis
When: 07 Jul 14 17:38
your saying harbinger achieved so much more on the clock

Yes, my opinion at the time and now.

when he actually did not, he achieved less

Your opinion.

to say you know harbinger was a far better and faster horse at the same stage is folly when comparing the 2 hardwicke races


I never said I know, it is what I believe at this stage. If somebody else believes he's as good then they're entitled to that view, I wouldn't say it was folly, it's just their opinion like I have mine, results will (usually) decide what was folly.

Occasionally I'll have strong view on a race or horse and I'll put it forward. I also like to see other people air strong views, whether I disagree with them or not. Nobody's saying their opinion is fact and if other people are confident in their own opinions I don't see the problem? Personally I like to see some strong views otherwise we just have threads full of fannying posts giving dozens of horses a chance and saying nothing.

Incidentally, I had Harbinger only improving 1lb in the KG, as good as the performance was and I expected him to win I have no doubts the race fell apart making him look even better, but that's usually the case with wide margin winners.
By:
sintonian
When: 07 Jul 14 17:54
On a line through Noble Mission you can say that Magician has the beating of Telescope. I know 10f on soft ground is not Telescope's ideal conditions, but then you can say the same for Magician given the way he won his Breeders Cup race, 12f on firm, beating The Fugue. Both horses have raced against Noble Mission this season when then going has been soft, at trips short of their best, and it was Magician who got the closest. For me, the market has the front two the wrong way around. Telescope should be 5/2 and Magician 2/1, not vice-versa.
By:
Figgis
When: 07 Jul 14 17:59
you want credit for

Absolutely no idea where that comes from.
By:
FELTFAIR
When: 07 Jul 14 18:01
Whether you can compare 2010 times with 2014 times at Ascot is debatable but Harbinger`s time in the Harwicke was just a little better than Telescope`s.

However, Harbinger significantly stepped up on "slower" ground in the KG. Perhaps Telescope can do the same thing, I would think not but Stoute wouldn`t run him if he doesn`t think he can do himself justice.
By:
Figgis
When: 07 Jul 14 18:04
I'd agree with that, sint, I have Magician the slightly better horse, but Telescope has had a better preparation, only really coming to hand last time whereas Magician has had some fairly tough races.
By:
sintonian
When: 07 Jul 14 18:12
He has had some tough races yeah and you can see Telescope has been trained one step at a time. I would say though at the time of the POW I think AOB was something like 2 winners in his last 50 runners, the week after Ascot he yard really hit form and had 8 winners over Irish Derby weekend. Might be something in that, might not be.
By:
Figgis
When: 07 Jul 14 18:16
Stoute wouldn`t run him if he doesn`t think he can do himself justice

I'm sure Telescope has already done enough to give himself a decent chance. Arguably he's the right fav but I don't think he proved himself anything exceptional at Ascot and is too short at present, in my view. The original pint was not that Telescope isn't any good, just that I think he's worth taking on with a good Derby winner in receipt of 12lbs.
By:
Figgis
When: 07 Jul 14 18:17
* point, haven't started on the pints yet Wink
By:
brigust1
When: 07 Jul 14 18:21
I have said before that Ascot has had a few slightly surprising wide margin wins since the course was relaid. I don't know if there was anything in it but Harbinger was quickly retired to stud after his. It was inexplicable and I think Workforce turned the form around significantly with both Youmzain and Cape Blanco enough to put question marks against his KG.
Telescope has been well beaten by Noble Mission and how he won a Group 1 just shows how difficult it isn't. 
If Magician runs to form he is the leading Group 1 older horse in my opinion and I hope Kingston Hill runs again for the 3 year olds. But it doesn't look like a betting race for me.
By:
Figgis
When: 07 Jul 14 18:27
Wide margin winners enhancing a horse's superiority is nothing new and it's not confined to Ascot. Danedream and Treve were both wide margin winners of the Arc, I don't think anybody could sensibly argue they weren't easily the best horses on the day but events proved afterwards that the margin of superiority was exaggerated. However, I'm sure this would also be true of certain wide margin Arc winners from years ago, who weren't put under the same scrutiny in pre-internet days and were packed off to stud without having to prove themselves again. Not much has changed in spite of what some would have us believe.
By:
harry callaghan
When: 07 Jul 14 18:41
your saying harbinger achieved so much more on the clock

Yes, my opinion at the time and now.

when he actually did not, he achieved less

Your opinion.

to say you know harbinger was a far better and faster horse at the same stage is folly when comparing the 2 hardwicke races

I never said I know, it is what I believe at this stage. If somebody else believes he's as good then they're entitled to that view, I wouldn't say it was folly, it's just their opinion like I have mine, results will (usually) decide what was folly.

Telescope is no Harbinger despite comparisons being made afterwards. He may have looked similarly impressive in taking the same race but ran nothing like as fast,  your words

Harbinger carried 9 stone
TIME 2m 27.36s     Stands' side 10.1, Centre 10.0, Far side 10.3; Round course 9.1).

Telescope carried 9 stone and 1 pound
TIME 2m 27.45s     Stands' side 9.4, Centre 9.5, Far side 9.1, Round 8.4).
By:
Figgis
When: 07 Jul 14 18:44
I'm talking about time figures, not comparing final times from different years, which is futile. Conditions were faster when Telescope won, imo.
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