bazzar, in his prime Frankie always had his horse in the first six in most big races.
Holding Horses up in  races run at a searching pace is fair enough , Lester was the master at that tactic  ,to be fair to the rider  SEA MOON  was never really travelling  yesterday and looks like a moody  so and so  , did he really want to beat Dandino at Goodwood? .The winner  is back on track  and may again run up a sequence ,if Nathaniel  is given a good rest and comes back fresh for the Arc,  he and she may fight it out again  and next time  he  he may just catch her out if she has had a further two or three outings before then ,the race could be a real epic

I agree Bazzar, if they wanted to have a pop at the Arc then i think she would win hands down.

But i have a feeling that she will be retired before the Arc, i cant see any reason why they would risk her well being running in the race, however, the way the arc is run suits her turn of foot.

Yesterday was the horse's final race in my opinion.


What a great animal she is, we are talking about a mare here...its unbelievable.

ROZEL welcome back, if she runs, she may get beaten but not by ANYTHING from Europe!!!!!

Danedream is good for at least 2 lengths better rating. Nathaniel came off the bridal at the 3 pole as Buick went for home from there, Danedream cruised on the bridal up his inside for another furlong before having to be checked up and switched to the outside to deliver the challenge, after losing momentum and at least a length during the manouvre the jockey galvanised her to snatch the win on a bobber at the line. Clearly the best horse in the race.

a pleasing result.

PS - has anyone got OFFICIAL ratings AND those of Timeform over the decades for the top fillies & mares?
Miesque was 132 officially, and from my memory banks, I think that's the highest I can recall.

I don't see how yesterday's race can be regarded as improved form from her Arc win, and the official 128 is probably a fair mark.

Remember that Nathaniel gave her 3lbs, and if Danedream was promoted to 130, then Nathaniel would in all likelihood be elevated to 133, which is exalted company indeed - that would probably be a shade too high for him, though it's possible we haven't seen the best of him yet.

As a consequence, it's likely that Dunaden would be hiked to a higher mark than a legend like Yeats

Danedream was 132 on Timeform last season.  I can't see them putting her up from Saturday, but she must have been failry close to that. 

Nathaniel was on 127 last year.  I think you could probably put him up 3lbs or so through Sea Moon and St Nicholas Abbey, but not much more.

So Nathaniel 130, Danedream 127 on Saturday feels about right.  May even  be consistent with her getting baulked and losing a couple of lengths?  Not sure I want to go there.

I feel that Timeform are generally closer than the official ratings when it comes to top horses.  The official ones often seem a bit conservative to me.

I only like to refer to Timeform's ratings for a laugh when I'm down, as many are ludicrous!
That said...I think Three Troikas was officially 137 in 1979 which is absolutely insane.

To be fair to the OFFICIAL assessors, their ratings 'calmed down' after the 1979 classifications, as they were in their infancy in those days, having only started two or three years before.
Nevertheless, there are always the odd ones that are difficult to believe.

I did a bit of research and managed to find a few with the best OFFICIAL ratings which the likes of Dahlia & Allez France didn't get - that pair were just a bit before my time, so I can't appreciate them as much.

All Along 132
Miesque 132
Black Caviar 132
Pebbles 132
Bosra Sham 131
Balanchine 130
Marwell 130
Oh So Sharp 130
Triptych 130
Goldikova 130

Are the only ones I could find with a mark of 130 or more, and before many of you ask...Indian Skimmer was 129, Zarkava & Zenyatta were given 128!

I've said on many occasions what a thankless task the handicappers have in compiling their ratings and there's a tendency for many to rate their favourites on ONE outstanding performance.

Harbinger
Hawk Wing
Intikhab
Peintre Celebre
Teenoso

...to name a few that on just ONE occasion, produced far in excess of their previous or subsequent form.
It's impossible to put a real figure on such brilliant displays, and they'll never please everyone.

Any more for the above list?

ILWAB  ....I have never put 500 quid on a Horse , but if i was going to  I would want to make
sure I was going  to get a run for my money   both O'brien and  Moore  invariably adopt hold up tactics in big races.  The field for the KG was  packed with high class Horses who  were guaranteed to stay the trip ,  even more so as the ground was  loosing  moisture by the hour  .It was a pretty sure bet that  many  in the field would have plenty left  coming into the straight .To his credit J O'brien was fully aware of this and challenged wide  but Moore was forced inside , this was to some extent predictable .Just as predictable was that Nathaniel  would be ridden  prominently  throughout the race  , must have  to evens in running  turning in ? now as I say I don't bet big ,  but a 500   get out bet at evens would have done me ...better luck next time

aye indeed mac. im not a big gambler but i do have a few bets like that every year.

i wont talk about the ride as its clear most thought he wouldnt have won anyway and i do kinda agree. i mean its just impossible to know with certainity and although an arc winner and former kg winner was in the field, i did think sea moon had the beating of them and was quite bullish, i really thought he'd win the race. i thought the race was set up for him to win. wasnt to be but i wont cry about it, im always prepared to lose it. just wish ryan had him closer and came down the outside and not up the inner, most will say it dint matter but he was just never in a position at any stage to win the race for me.

i do often trade but didnt bother as was pretty confident.

but betting for ya eh

*packet

aye!!

not sure id be backing him for the arc after than but i believe hes better than that. the fact that the race was at ascot was key for me. he was too far back but he didnt pick up as well as id hoped either so cant complain...

if it was on a left handed track id have backed him, hes unbeaten over 12f going left handed, and not one win right handed,its clear ro me hes better going left and if it was at epsom for example i believe he'd leave them all for dead.

was a good race and nathaniel backers  were unlucky.

wd dd backers.

Thankless task, but discuss.

Best King George for years:
Nathaniel beat nothing last year for 126, this year he ran to 124.
Danedream ran to 122, and St Nicholas Abbey and Sea Moon under par (Pretty sure he was down as 124 after the Hardwicke)

http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/article/465/7928847/danedream-earns-rating-of-122

"Danedream's triumph in Saturday's King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes sponsored by Betfair has been a given a rating of 122 by the Senior British Horseracing Authority handicapper Phil Smith.

The performance of the runner-up Nathaniel, who was conceding the three-pound sex allowance to the star German-trained filly when going down by the narrowest of margins in the Ascot showpiece, has been rated 124.

That is two pounds less than his win in the race 12 months ago, but the same as he recorded in the Coral-Eclipse two weeks ago.

It is also the same as St Nicholas Abbey's win in the Investec Coronation Cup (he ran to 122 in finishing third on Saturday), Camelot's Investec Derby triumph and the now retired So You Think's Prince of Wales's Stakes victory."

A lot  of SNA fans  seem sure  that he is best going left handed,  but those same people should stop to consider  just what kind of performance might Nathaniel put up going  left handed.He was too immature to run in the Derby last  year  and the coronation Cup has come and gone but a left hand track would play to his strengths just as surely as a right hand track plays to the strengths of the fantastic Danedream who had the temerity to get up and beat the great Horse  the other day

The fact of the matter is that none of the other horses, apart from the winner,
are as good as some people believe, she ran BELOW form and still won, though narrowly
she STILL WON, I have had many horses beaten in photos, so it makes a change for one to go my way.
This little filly IS TOP CLASS, please learn and digest.

His 2nd to CDA was left-handed. Guess where JOB had him positioned?

SNA did beat Midday well at Epsom though it can be argued that Queally went too early on a horse that was slightly better at 10f

At the Breeders Cup Midday was clearly past her best and Sarafina was horse that really needed give to show her form - last time I looked I don't think anything else from that race with the exception of Sea Moon has won since. I cannot have Midday being in form in that race.

Sint when SNA raced up with the pace in the Arc he was beaten further

he also shouldve beaten cirrus at meydan, was making ground hand over fist and given another poor ride from his pilot.

"Roobuck - Following the exploits of Great Heavens and Meandre over the weekend I am a little concerned he may not show in Paris. Added to that he can earn a lot more for Gosden if he is in the hunt for leading trainer by coming second in the Champion"

You make an interesting point, but the other side of the coin is that So You Think ran in both races last season with the same 13 day gap as there will be next October.

Furthermore...Nathaniel's already had two races within a fortnight of each other, so his trainer may not be averse to the idea of a shot at the double - Gosden may be pondering over options at this very moment, and Nathaniel's general well-being (three days after his second tough race) will be under the microscope at this very moment.

He's a tough colt and if he was rested from now until until the Arc, I wouldn't see his participation in both races as a huge problem - he'd also avoid an inevitable bruising encounter with Frankel at York.

It's definitely something worth bearing in mind as he was withdrawn last season from the Arc (albeit for different reasons) and he had a long rest after his King George victory - maybe ante-post backers should be wary.

PS - you neglected to mention Masked Marvel as another possible string to his bow, but maybe I'm alone in anticipating improvement from him this season over 12f...he ran an OK race on Saturday, but I was disappointed with the tactics, as I thought he might have been ridden as a 'second pacemaker' and been the first to kick 4/5 furlongs out, which in my view could have maximised his chances - that's another 'theory' I got wrong

Nevertheless...I backed the winner too!

yes the breeders form is not particularly good.

he is brilliant on tight tracks tho.

there is not a horse currently in training i would back against st nick at either chester or epsom over 12f on good or better.

i mean maybe nathaniel is a better horse, suppose we'd have to say he is given hes a king george winner, eclipse and  2nd again in this yrs kg but going left handed on tight tracks sees sna really thrive imo. wish we couldve seen frankel in these races just to see how'd he'd done, real shame.

The Japanese horse is the chief threat, and is guaranteed to run, barring injury. Definately best value compared to Camelot, Nathaniel, who may not even turn up!!!