Pleased to see Speaking of Which was left in a race at the weekend - threw a few more quid at him at 700+

There's £237 waiting at 40.0 for Frankel. Now, I don't have enough money in my account, but surely
that's £237 for old rope? Or is there something I don't know?

Money for old rope imo - no chance he turns up

I would not rule out Frankel 100%. Sir Henry has not said anything on the subject. Come supplementing time if the ground looks like being good it's got to be tempting. Probably just wishful thinking though.

He (Frankel) bloody well better not turn-up, i layed him at 9/2 for £50 on here after his York ROMP. Stick to the plan Sir Henry.

Thanks Miller - it seems a strange target if nothing is actually wrong with him don't you think?

I keep saying this but in this day & age, the information about top European horses is very poor, and unforgiveable!

Anyone know when the Niel (and other trial) dec are out?

Are you backing him sint or have you already?

Sea Moon is still open to improvement, which he needs to on form.
Soft ground would help.

Workforce as a 3yo or as a 4yo?

Obviously as 3yo when he got the wfa allowance and won a pretty poor race by Arc standards imo. The older brigade are much, much stronger this year and Sea Moon obviously will not get any wfa. I would imagine that though below average, a couple of 3yos will finish ahead of him.

I am happy to take the flak if he prevails and g/l if you play him. Perhaps he is a Group 1 horse but in the Arc you need to have either 10F speed to hold a position or a real turn of speed to finish and personally think that SM has neither.

Sorry I have mentioned my reservations before so won't go on anymore....watch him win by 3 or 4 now

Looks like SM will be going straight there as not entered on Sunday apparently.

My mistake. He is. Was being retarded.

8 remain in the Foy:

    FIORENTE IRE M.PS. 4 A.    58    ***         . BALLYMACOLL STUD FARM LTD    SIR MR. STOUTE    144,294
2    MEANDRE M.PS. 4 A.    58    ***         . ROTHSCHILD FAMILY    A. FABRE    778,517
3    TREASURE BEACH GB M.PS. 4 A.    58    ***         . HAY / SMITH / MAGNIER / TABOR    AP. O'BRIEN    1615665
4    JOSHUA TREE IRE M.PS. 5 A.    58    ***         . KK Al Nabooda / K. ALBAHOU    Mr. BOTTI    633,444
5    Robin Hood Ire M.Ps. 4 A.    58    ***         . MAGNIER MME / M.TABOR / D.Smith    AP. O'BRIEN    41124
6    VADAMAR M.PS. 4 A.    58    ***         . QATAR BLOODSTOCK LIMITED    Mr. Delzangles    214,580
7    GOLDSMITH JPN M.PS. 4 A.    58    ***         . SUNDAY RACING CO. LTD    Y. IKEE    9004667
8    AVENTINO JPN M.Ps. 8 a.    58    ***         MISS KAZUKO YOSHIDA    Y. IKEE    98938

According to the 'Headmaster - help' thread he is - only info about entries I have

I've always regarded Nathanial as a slow one paced horse who excels when ridden handy in a slow run race in a small field. I don't see why people would think he could reverse form with Snow Fairy given the way she panned him in the Irish Champion Stakes it's not as if she doesn't stay 12 furlongs and it's hard to imagine her not beating him again regardless of the trip unless she doesn't fire for some reason.

It's the odds of Sea Moon which appeal to people. As posters have eluded to he was 2/1 for the King George and was ridden well off a slow joke of a pace which was a massive negative that day, found a bit of trouble on the run in and never really travelled throughout the race yet only got beaten 2 lengths. He ran a much better race in the Hardwicke where i had him running a Grade 1 time on the clock, he travelled well,'quickened' and hacked up in a race that has subsequently thrown up numerous group winners. I completely disagree with the poster who said Sea Moon ran his race in the King George on a line through Dunaden. It's subjective but my own interpretation was that on a line through Dunaden it was obvious to me that he ran below his form of the Hardwicke. In the Hardwicke Sea Moon tracked a better pace than in the King George, quickened clear then seemed to idle in the closing stages up top. Dunaden lacked the pace to mount his challenge sooner as a result got caught in a pockey then flew home, he is a quality horse and I think he will win another big race later this season. Dunaden may have been a little unfortunate but i felt his lack of pace at the business end resulted in him getting trapped at the crucial stage. I would say he might have finished 3/4 or a length closer to Sea Moon with a clearer run if he had the pace, but even with this concession he still gets beaten about 2 1/2 lengths. In the King George, Dunaden was very keen, got lit up and as a result rode up with the pace then was one paced at the business end, tactics which wouldn't have seen him run to his best - he's a hold up horse as we know it's like Sergeant Cecil setting the pace. Yet, he finished closer to Sea Moon that day, getting beaten just over a length. It depends the way one looks at it but to me i don't think Sea Moon ran his race in the King George, as the Americans say, he simply didn't fire.

People seem to have written off Sea Moon as a Group 2 horse but he wasn't exactly given a steller ride by Peslier in the Leger, i personally thought it was a shocker but that's just my opinion and in the BC Turf he missed a piece of work on the track due to the officials and subsequently got beaten by SNA who was assisted by lasix on a tight firm track over 1 mile 4 furlongs - under those conditions i can't think of many horses who would have beaten him that day. Lest we forget that multiple Group 1 winners Sarafina and Midday were well behind Sea Moon in that race.

It may prove that Sea Moon doesn't have the kick finish to win the Arc, etc, but given the way he travelled and quickened in the Great Voultigeur and Hardwicke when he does fire i think he has enough to be very competitive in this race. Add to that his price of 2/1 for the King George and 20/1+ for the Arc against similar horses, given that Frankel isn't running, and Camelot may not run, that looks a huge price to me. I think Sea Moon is a similar horse to Youmzain in terms of profile and style of racing, but arguably Sea Moon is with a better trainer who might be able to find that bit of improvement in him. Stoute isn't the type of trainer to mess around and if he thought Sea Moon wasn't good enough to win an Arc then he wouldn't bother running him. I can see the Longchamp track really suiting Sea Moon as it did for Youmzain, and i think he will run a big race. I'm also in the Orfevre camp, my view is simply that if connections can get Orfevre conditioned at his optimum level then he will win the Arc, he seems to have everything as a horse, he has won at a variety of distances and looks to have bags of class - it's just a question of fitness and conditioning. I also agree with the poster that Deep Impact basically lost the Arc due to a lack of a prep run (travelled like the best horse then seemed to just get and emptied which for a horse who stayed further didn't make sense) and wasn't assisted by the random change of tactics by Take that day.

Any way, racing is all about opinions - good luck with your bets

Hope Top Trip runs well enough in the Niel to persuade them to go for the Arc as Doumen's website says he is being aimed at a 1m7f Group 2 on the Saturday of Arc weekend.

I'd see the fact that Sea Moon is not having a prep run in France as a positive. Workforce was sent straight there after his KG flop.

Took over big odds about a few in the race over the last couple of months.
Layed Frankel at 5.4 (he better not turn up now) & he wont.
Only for small ££ but took 55s about Sea Moon, 14.0 Nathaniel, 75s Imperial Monarch, 80s & 15.0 pl Galikova & 4.5 pl about Orfevre.
Its a winning race for me at the mo
Hope it stays that way after it

The 3 'dark' horses that have been underrated to my mind are Kesampour, Bayrir and Saonois. Kes and Saonois both ran in a very messy Prix de JC, which has been a key pointer to this race (perhaps better when it was a furlong longer), finishing 1st and 4th. Kes looks guaranteed to improve with the additional distance (out of a Hernando mare) while Saonois looked better the further he went. Bayrir also comes with excellent pedigree and top connections for this race and has already won a Gr1 over 10f.

But all these all available at close to triple figure prices. You can be sure that won't be the case after Sunday.

Being well tipped up in the wk/ender.