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Kauto-Hennessy Gold Cup??
Kauto-Hennessy Gold Cup??
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Replies: 532
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Rarely do they look like they have the scope for steeplechasing nowadays & certainly not for 3miles 2.
Istabraq , Collier Bay , Hors La Loi III , Katchit , Binocular , Make A Stand etc ..... none of them sound like Gold Cup contenders do they ? |
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yep eric 20 years ago, im pretty sure that Beech Road was the last champion Hurdler to contest the race a few years after
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19 years ago, sorry
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Can you name the last Champion Hurdle winner to go off fav for the Gold Cup???
Was that not Dawn Run ? Can only think off Bula & Lanzarote as other possibles. |
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I found that in the pre Racing Post results finder.
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or Night Nurse of course.
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It was Celtic Shot 626, think he went off around the 3/1 mark
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Eric, its still on the site
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..around same time as similarly named Mercy Rimell horse Celtic Chief.
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I use SLife normally, dont think it will be on there.
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Who beat him in the Tolworth pre the 88 Champion Hirdle
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I switched loyalties off Celtic Shot that year for the CHurdle afterwards having backed him in defeat ... an early lesson for me.
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Celtic Shot , crikey. most of have been a poor year. No Best Mate , Denman , Kauto Star , Kicking King or War Of Attrition around then.
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Dunno, he was exceptional over fences but was injured in the Gold Cup. He beat the Gold Cup winner subsequently.
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626, Dessie was a pensioner then, finished a distant third to Garrison Savannah and the Fellow, its a vit sad that Garrison went so wrong after with Injuries, that run at Liverpool must have been 1973 all over again for Jenny Pitman
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Bit sad*
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..earlier, Garrison Savannah. Now we're getting to the Dessie, The Fellow era.
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1991 Adam Kondrat on The Fellow
 & 12 year oll Desert Orchid , behind Garrison Savannah . Yup very average year. |
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On the subject of Gold Cup winners running in the National(Garrison) was Master Oats the last Gold Cup winner to run in the race??
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Eric all this is based on how you look at a horses form.
You obviously judge a horse on his worst form, which is ridiculous, where everyone else, Timeform included, judges a horse on his best form. When you judge a horse you must look at what he has achieved not where he failed. There are always mitigating circumstances for failure including fitness, going, tactics etc. |
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brigust, he has to judge kauto on his defeats, as wining is expected every time the horse is on a race track. He hasn't been 2nd fav ib a race since his first race in open company.
His record in grade 1 chases is 1F111111121U1111F1 His record in all staying chases 3m+ is 111111221U1111F1 The only thing to pick on there is the end of 2008 season where we see a 2. |
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Amazed you lot are still giving this Eric/Kirk/Moritz fella the time of day. He'll say anything to re-affirm his point.of.view.
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Not only that Sint, he actually goes looking for a row. If you say anything that he can't answer, he will simply change the subject to maintain the argument. I imagine when he's not at his PC that he is as meek as a mouse, there is a lot of pent up frustration in this boy. In many ways it's good that t'interweb lets them express themselves in such a way, in days gone by they just went bananas!
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Of Exotic Dancer, he was a consistently good horse. His open company form, excluding his pipe opener fto where he never won was
112121-2353-3132 In his second season after coming 2nd to kauto for the 3rd time in a row in a grade 1 they tried a different tactic in the king george and put it up to Kauto a long way from home a tactic which failed and cost him 2nd. He was going to run in the irish Hennessy then but he got a back injury, but still ran in the gold cup and at aintree, two races he didn't show his best in. His 3rd season he was poor, like Kauto in the betfair chase, but then won the Lexus chase, came 3rd to Kauto and Denman in the Gold Cup and then for 2nd at Aintree in a race that ultimately killed him. He was a high quality and very consistent horse who, but for Kauto Star would have won a gold cup, two king georges & a betfair chase to go with his Lexus, PaddyP0wer and Boylesp0rts double and Totesp0rt bowl. |
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14 chases, 5 wins, 5 defeats by Kauto, 3 substandard runs and the 2nd in the race that killed him. He was a fine horse who born in any other time would have achieved much more.
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Brigust, Eric wouldnt dare go the "Best form" Route...
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Yeah he brings up Exotic Dancers fto defeat at the hands of Turpin Green, the season he won 4 and came 2nd to Kauto twice.
I'm pretty sure given he was running in the PaddyP0wer nto the defeat at Carlisle to Turpin wasn't a bad thing. But it is the form that matters most to kirk |
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Cv,i dont really want to add another debate to the ever growing list of Kauto against whoever.Cant believe this Kauto/Hennessey thread has lasted so long!!and diversed from the subject,but then again.....
Just wanted to say that i mentioned Burrough Hill Lad cos he to me was the ultimate Gold Cup horse,and i was always of the impression that he would take some beating round there.So when he is rated inferior to other GC winners,i have my doubts.Still,its so difficult to compare different eras and people will always disagree,nowt wrong with that, but we all need to remember that we are talking about great horses here!! Kauto was a great performance no doubt,but i will always have that nagging doubt about the way Denman ran in the race compared to the previous year.That is in no way trying to belittle Kauto,after all he does what he can do on the day,and that was impressive. |
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Cheers bud, just wanted your opinion on the 2009 performance. Hard to believe anything could have beaten him that day. One of the best ever Gold Cup performances that was.
Best field in many a year, packed full of top horses, five grade 1 winners, the hennessy winner and the rsa winner. It's understandable why timeform, the handicapper and the racing post all rated it so highly. |
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Fair comment,and hard to argue against.
I guess its down to how good these horses are compared to those of years gone by,and that will always be down to opinion,as no definite way of judging really.Once horses are given ratings they have to change them according to when they meet each other.I do think their is an argument to say that horses these days tend to get too high a rating compared,leaving out Arkle and his mates of course,who are probably a tad high as well. eg,i find it difficult to imagine Arkle giving Kauto 22lb in a Gold Cup,and i also find it difficult to imagine Kauto giving Burrough Hill Lad weight in a Gold Cup. |
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brigust1 i look at both a great horses good form/conditions and poorest form/conditions. That is how I decide when or not to have four figures on them. A great horse is normally only a great horse under specific conditions ... unless it's Arkle who had no weak areas .. pace at shortish trips, stayed staying trips above 3m at pace, jumped v well, conceded weight easily... went left handed went right handed ... no faults. The other greats since then I can see one or more weaknesses in.
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Versatility (trip)
Versatility (left and right handed) Jumping at pace (undulating or not) Staying speed stamina Championship (above 3m) Speed stamina Championship (3m) Weight conceding conformation/ability Running style Lets rank Denman, Kauto, Arkle, Best Mate, Burrough Hill Lad out of 5 on these elements of greatness. |
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In 1994 , 3 Gold Cup winners ran in the Grand National ...... & none got round.
Garrison Savannah The Fellow Master Oats |
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Running style [;)]
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Exactly that bud, it goes to opinion when comparing horses of different generations.
But why Kauto and Denman are judged so highly is because the consistently talented horses of this era. Exotic Dancer & Neptune Collonges, both winners of plenty of top staying chases, who have maintained. The reason Best Mate isn't rated as high is because, Beef or Salmon aside, it was a who's who of average handicappers he faced. Horses with a mere handful of career wins filled the places on all three of his wins. So it's understandable why the ratings are on the high end in this era, where Kauto consistently beat Exotic Dancer, he himself consistently beat the rest. |
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Exotic Dancer = Racing Demon. Definitely not great animals nowhere near.
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I was talking to bud, you know a good poster.
We know your stupid opinions on the subject. Truckers Tavern and Sir Rembrant are better than Exotic Dancer and Neptune Collonges. *yawn* |
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FFs Eric you cannot use Arkle as the median. He was the exception. Every horse falls below standard by comparison. That is ridiculous in the extreme.
Take a sensible yardstick, and there are plenty, and work around them. Burrough Hill Lad, Best Mate, Denman there is a good group only just below or adjacent to the very best and you should work around them. If your example is better than the above you have a very, very good horse and if only slightly worse then you have barely below the top class. Do not use Kauto Star or Desert Orchid because even with their faults they were/are exceptions to the rule. |
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I wasnt using Arkle as the median I was using him as the perfect role model. Not sure what language you read in brigust1?
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See elements of greatness post above ... Dessie doesnt measure up on quite a few.
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