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onred = one,by the way!
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Interesting that Kirk has chosen to denigrate Dessie for beating inferior inconsistent animals who might not even be fit in a.n.other handicap, when on this same thread he gave a very compelling argument as to why winning such a race off a high mark would be very difficult and therefore presumably quite an achievement?
eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10 Replies: 593 02 Nov 10 19:59 Running off level weights with opponents compared to conceding stones to lesser and in some cases the same horses is a totally different ball game. It is chalk and cheese. The horses who were level weight with him but now with lower weights are now 'sped up' relative to him. For me this is not a linear scale for all horses there are numerous factors come in to play now. Stronger horses might have very little difference in top speed/duration say carrying between 11st 6lb and 12st whereas less strong horses may see a small difference in a smaller band say 11st 6lb and 11st 10lb. Above a certain weight one horse will maintain its speed better than another. So this depends on the horse it isnt simple maths as ratings would have you believe it depends on the weight for that particular horse. Another factor is the eyeball to eyeball struggle that weight conceding brings. They are battling now, one isnt cruising over the others like fancy Dan, this could affect some horses spirit more than others. So again dependant on the horse. Instead of travelling how he wants with plenty in hand he is now being 'bustled up' by the other 'sped up' horses carying less weight. I think Kauto likes to travel well within himself when he comes under pressure he is not the same horse whereas Denman bullies them out of it. Another consideration is the horses concentration at the business end when he is used to pulling away now they stay with him for longer and he doesnt feel as comfortable ... more likely to make a mistake. eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10 Replies: 593 02 Nov 10 20:02 Also recovery ... a stronger horse is more likely to take such a struggle conceding weight well than a lighter framed horse imo of course. There will be other factors cant think of right now... eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10 Replies: 593 02 Nov 10 20:23 Another factor .. when the horse is at its normal top speed and the other light weighted 'sped up' horses are bustling him the jockey has to ask for even more than his normal top speed to counteract the 'sped up' horses some who may speed up more than expected at their weight (see previous point on weight carried by horse not having a linear affect on its resulting speed). Again mistakes more likely and the horse feeling uncomfortable as he is pushed for more speed and acceleration than off levels while the others can accelerate quicker than off levels. Not a problem when they are off level weights. Another factor ... well being on the day ... off levels the better horse may be so much better he can win even on a slightly off day. Conceding weight he has to be 100% or they will get him. |
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Quite DO
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Eric Morris is a narcissist, desmond. He even accused people and me of backing Kauto for the Hennessy simply because they disagreed with his point.of.view. This in speght of my comments on Page 2 of this thread.
He does this kind of thing all the time. |
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*speight
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I highlighted it depends on the type of horse, weight conceding type or not, jumping mistakes or not. I gave great detail on that.
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brigust, I was talking about Dessie being denigrated on here. I'll explain my comment a bit.
-Kauto threads attract kirk (eric_morris). -Kirk spends all his time trying to diminish and downplay great horses achievements so as to elevate his favourite horse, Best Mate. -It results is people defending these horse, Kauto & Dessie are the usual targets, Denman too. -It results in a the downplaying of Best Mate's achievemnts. It happens non stop on here. Say every 2 weeks there will be the same thing. Dessie, Kauto, Best Mate, Denman, these are horses that should be celebrated by all. |
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bud would you not think Kauto in 2009 was pretty much Gold Cup perfection?
I can't see how he could have done more given Ruby wanted to follow Neptune over the 2nd last, Kauto took him to the front 4 out. It wasn't even the plan, who knows what they could have done had Ruby made for home after the 5th last as Kauto was powering up the hill. He could have gone another few furlongs. It's hard to compare horses who never raced eachother but I agree with timeform when they say that was "the best performance in the race since Arkle". |
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All great horses are faultless ... anon.
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This non-story now put to bed , how many column inches did the press get out of it.
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I dont agree with Timeform. How can they possibly overlook the fact the horse in 2nd was Denman who had been diagnosed with heart problems previously and was ridden in a totally subdued manner playing totally against his strengths and totally to Kautos strengths. If he wasnt ridden like that for heart reasons then the trainer should have been pulled in to the stewards room. We all know Kauto gets beat/his jumping falls to pieces when the pace is turned on at an undulating Cheltenham whther it be a 2 mile Champion Chase or his 2 losing Gold Cups where he isnt the greatest at jumping/staying unless he is allowed to cruise around. In years to come people will read what Timeform have said in black and white .... however I will know differently because I have my own eyes and better understanding of the horses traits than they do.
You can read similar things on the great Arkle the best staying chaser ever and the Gold Cup horses he gave weight to in a Hennessy etc only to find they were in terrible form at the time and were more Cool Ground than Kauto Star. Doesnt denigrade the horse it just adds reality to the hype in some instances. Thats how you make money antepost you see what others dont see in a horse and what he beat and the way he did it, the way he doesnt like it. It isnt hero worshipping it is cutting the crap then seeing not just a great horse but a great horse under only certain conditions, at certain trips etc. Great horse is too general you need to break it down to where they were great and where they werent great. Arkle imo was great in all respects, the ultimate chaser. |
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Forget Denman in 2009, Exotic Dancer, Neptune Collonges, both Grade 1 winners were hammered. That was the best Gold Cup field in years.
Kirk you have proved all your opinions are to maintain Best Mates better than all since Arkle over the Gold Cup trip. So no matter what Kauto does or did you will always maintain that. So your opinion is indeed wortheless given it's total bias. |
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Denman was a better staying chaser than Kauto Star. You saw the Gold Cup and you saw Denman ridden to his strengths and Kauto showing his usual jumping/staying frailties when the pace is on. We have plenty of evidence of that now re Kauto not liking the taps on early at Chelts. anyone who discounted that as Kauto not being himself that day is a total mug as he showed he was himself since then re jumping there.
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That is at trips above 3 miles. At 3 and under Kauto is the best I've seen off levels.
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We know your simplistic stats eric, somehow falling and a defeat at Aintree over 3m1f prove your stupid point he doesn't stay the gold cup trip.
*yawn* must this nonsense really be recycled every week? Seriously? |
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The only class horses Denman has met in a Gold Cup have beaten him when ridden to their strengths. Dawn Run beat the likes of Wayward Lad and Silver Buck who all would have left Exotic Dancer for dead. Exotic Dancer is the most over-rated chaser ever for the purposes of justifying Kauto's rating.
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Kauto has met....
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Yes everyone is wrong kirk, timeform included. Kauto is only good over 3m.
How can anyone take timeform seriously when they say 2009 was "the best performance in the race since Arkle". How could a dual Gold Cup winning horse, who doesn't stay, be given such an accolade. Hmmm, I was thinking as he powered up the hill that day. Man that horse doesn't stay the Gold Cup trip. But then I realised only 1 horse Kauto has ever raced actually stays the trip, Denman all the other horses beaten over the past 3 years were non stayers. It's so simple, how have timeform and the handicapper got it so wrong. You should write to timeform kirk. Tell them they're wrong, Kauto is a non stayer. |
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When Kauto made that huge blunder at the 8th fence in the Gold Cup this year, I was thinking, that's a non stayer. He's racing over 3m2f+ and made a huge jumping mistake. The is clear evidence he doesn't stay over 3m.
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Fcuk me, Silver Buck ran in the 1986 gold Cup did he, my arse he did
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Also back in 2008, while Denman was sat at home after bottoming himself in the Gold Cup 3 weeks earlier, Kauto was pulling away from the Totesport Bowl field at Aintree when a huge blunder at the 2nd last winded him and he almost came to a halt, he jumped the last and was caught just on the line.
I was thinking, non stayer, that extra furlong was what cost him the race, not the Gold Cup 3 weeks prior, not the blunder 2 out. The extra furlong on the flat track. Non stayer proven. |
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These are the things you use as "evidence" Kauto doesn't stay further than 3 miles.
This is in fact the "evidence" you are either totally clueless or only want to maintain Best Mate superior to Kauto over the Gold Cup trip. So stop this charade. Give it up kirk and stop wasting everyone's time. |
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Forgive N Forget rather than Silver Buck but lets be honest using Exotic Dancer as a marker to measure the supposed greatest staying chaser since Arkle against is like using Voy Por Ustedes as the marker to measure a an all-time great 2 miler against.
Kauto justifies his rating in the King George but not elsewhere and certainly not at trips above 3 miles having lost 3 of his last 4 runs at those trips standing or not. Until great stayers Denman and IC came along he was racing against glorified handicappers. |
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So you want to use Forgive and forget and Wayward Lad, mmm lets look at a race nine months later when both had to find a strong pair of Bins to see which way the Grey went
And how many races did Wayward Lad win at Cheltenham, Lapped by Burrough Hill Lad, beaten by The Thinker, in fact i dont think he even won there, so using his Cheltenham form hardly praises Dawn Run... |
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eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 599 16 Nov 10 20:37 I highlighted it depends on the type of horse, weight conceding type or not, jumping mistakes or not. I gave great detail on that. Ah, I get it, so the fact that Dessie was a 'weight conceding type' and not given to 'jumping mistakes' (you could shorten this description to 'better') made it somehow easier for him to win handicaps. As if he was getting some kind of unfair advantage? Of course, some might say that that's why we have a handicapping system isn't it, to try and even out these advantages? You do understand the basic purpose of handicapping, kirk? |
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Exotic Dancer won only 6 from 15 of his chases that didnt have Kauto or Denman. He lost to Turnip Green (who was also only beaten 5 lengths by Kauto in his first Gold Cup). Our Vic, Knowhere, Snoopy Loopy, Madison Du Berlais beat Exotic, also lost couple of his novice chases. Glorified handicapper and what Kauto was measured against until Denman and IC came along to turn the taps on.
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Kauto is also extremely lucky his only 2 serious challengers in his career are hopeless at the sharp King George track leaving him against a bunch of handicappers in that.
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So you dont wan t to discuss Dawn Runs Cheltenham Gold Cup Form then, Surprise Surprise
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I still believe Wayward Lad was way better than Exotic Dancer anywhere. He like Kauto excelled in the sharper King George but when the taps were on he too like Kauto couldnt stay out the trip as well as his great contemporaries.
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great contemporaries.
The Thinker, Cybrandian ???? |
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Dawn Run beat the likes of Wayward Lad and Silver Buck who all
I think Silver Buck had left this mortal coil by then Dawn Run beat Wayward Lad receiving 5 pounds , not at levels. |
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Erics phucked if you go back pre racing post results finder...........
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Gold Cup winner Forgive N Forget, multiple King George winner Wayward Lad were much better opposition to Dawn Run and all better horses than the distinctly average Exotic Dancer. Exotic Dancer beats Racing Demon 1.25 lengths when 2nd to Kauto in the King George, then the same horse again only a head when behind Kauto and doubtful stayer Our Vic (remember the RSA with him??) in subsequent King George. Even Our Vic beat Kauto off levels at a staying trip above 3 miles. How much more evidence do you need?
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Gold Cup winner Forgive N Forget, multiple King George winner Wayward Lad were much better opposition to Dawn Run
Taking Cheltenham form more seriously must mean that the Thinker was a better horse than Dawn run then...... |
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The conditions were way different never remember a Gold Cup run in the snow like that, The Thinker was very fortunate.
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Racing Demon is virtually the same horse as Exotic based on the King George proximity TWICE. Racing Demon is no Wayward Lad, Dawn Run or Forgive N Forget in any century.
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Think they ran near to the form they showed the year before with each other. Dawn Run, although she was the 1st (and now probably only) horse to do the double, couldnt be ranked near the best at either Hurdles(Cima...) or Fences
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If Bula had the ground as it was in '86 rather than the bottomless ground of '75 , he would have done the double & at levels.
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Probably True 626, its not likely to happen again though
Can you name the last Champion Hurdle winner to go off fav for the Gold Cup??? |
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Celtic Shot
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