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zeeny, strangely that thread has been pulled. I wonder why.
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pasta_rogue
Had a back lined up the other day for a player, his price was 1.13/1.14, my request was for 1.10 of which there was no-one laying at that price he lost the point but i released in error during the refresh they money laying at 1.13/1.14 was jumped ahead by 1.15/1.16 - and plenty of it too i got matched at 1.10 this to me indicates that all money laying was taken down, despite him losing the point, with a fresh lay of 1.10 going into the market - which frankly i know didn't happen |
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sometimes i release too early and thankfully the point goes my way
come back matched for 0.01p |
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tmm, that suggests as Lat implied, that someone was able to see your bet coming and was able to take the appropriate action.
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Are we coming to "how are bets treated in the Betfair Application database" during the in-play delay and what security is in place to assure that they're not accessible even as a read only query for remote applications? Because if we do, I give this thread 30 more minutes before it's gone.
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"Scrip - so where do the left-overs go?"
There are none, the bet is matched on the other selections. I've tested it on illquid markets. |
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surely Betfair wouldn't/couldn't encourage that type of betting ??
one-click betting is fair enough, bots to send bets when certain market conditions are met also, but to have something running that no-one can see and to not be subject to normal in-play rules is an altogether differant matter |
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Betfair should announce it.
- so true I agree with Scrip - there is nothing really to hide provide the Orderbook rules are adhered too but betfair seem not to have learnt yet that thier users are ultra sophysticated and would have foudn this pretty quickly and the fact that is was not transparently stated makes people suspicious the (excellent) PR team where clearly left out of the loop... was thier not another stealth intoruction that cause uproar when discovered? |
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Quite clearly, BF are going to know EXACTLY what the market will look like X seconds (where X is the processing time on the market) before everyone else does OTHER THAN if people cancel their bets, which would surely scupper them using such a matching system on an in-running market with such a delay in operation on it?
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I'm sure many of us would have our confidence restored if bot or someone in a similar position of influence came on and reassured us that such nefarious activities were not taking place.
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I think it is fair to assume that betfair are pocketing the difference, given the examples of some on here.
Which is ILLEGAL in my book. A couple of further observations: 1) PMSL @ the GC, who clearly don't understand what they are doing, don't care, or are somehow involved. 2) The helpdesk must be working overtime again and you have to feel sorry for these people. |
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Scrip - but if the market is overbroke then clearly there will be an amount of money that does not have a home to go to.
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Lat, surely you're not suggesting the clock can be beaten??
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Fork - that depends on if this 'matching engine' is in place on in-running markets or not. WE NEED to be told.
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the man marcus 06 Mar 19:33 The Magician surely it's not possible to write a bot that can see bets before they hit the system and then match them instantly on in-play markets? this is only possible if you are betfair, and process orders in sequential (time stamped :o) order), which they do or always have. without the time stamp ( oh how I miss adonis) but historically they have processed bets horse by horse, not race by race and this new engine would need them to process race by race not horse by horse, and as such it might be some time before it goes live ion biogger fields, but thier Project -X can apparently handle this a few magnitudes over. what I was suggesting was to write algo to win of the changed market behaviour due to its introduction, not to mirror it ( only betfair can do that) |
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what do my and pasta-rogue's examples suggest?
i think the Jolly Green Giant is alive and well in-play |
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medemi, good point you make about the GC. They wouldn't have a scooby about the intricacies of the exchange we are discussing.
Explains how they allowed BF to operate in the exchange games market. A ridiculous decision imo. |
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even if this was implimented on IR markets, it would be fair providing it stuck to the existing orderbook rules, and continued to provide best execution and time priority.
you will get matched more efficiently Medemi - there are elements that could be considered grey, but the GC would would not understand them if you explained it to them ( and would certainly not spot it proactively) and probably would not even be interested in either case |
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The Magician (1) 06 Mar 19:48
the man marcus 06 Mar 19:33 The Magician surely it's not possible to write a bot that can see bets before they hit the system and then match them instantly on in-play markets? this is only possible if you are betfair -------------------------------------- If it's possible it's been done, where there's money there's incentive. And we are talking massive money here. |
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I suspect the most difficult decision the GC have ever had to make is what kind of biscuits to have with their afternoon tea.
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Ok, just tested it (at a small cost to myself) and it's definitely happening.
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Magician - but how could you possibly operate it on an IR market with a 5 second delay on it in which one or both parties would have the opportunity to cancel their offers? They would get caught out with only one side of the bet nearly every time.
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if you can beat the delay do you still need to see the pending bets.
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PMSL, All the common conspiracy posters are out in force I see.
The fact is there is no overage, no loose pennies, not clock beating your bets are getting matched more efficiently, surely that's what everybody wants. I don't see what the problem is? |
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Question is - do I get best execution or my request?
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but Marcus
if betfair dont 'pinch the spread' there is no money to be made except comission... this additional comission comes from several bets that matched in mathematical theroy - but due to the interface ( 2-way on each outcome within a dependent probability set) and the complication of doing the exact calculation ( by customers) went unmatched. betfair are simply making more bets match - what is in it for them is increased comission sure it probably damages several professional customers ( including me /slightly - in the short term)) but to the benefit of the small player, and betfair and me in the long term as I say I welcome the idea.... provided the existing norms are maintained |
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Scripophilist
in over 5 years here i've never encountered any problems getting a bet matched my example of 19.37 is a recent phenomen and not at all efficient for me |
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I think I've managed to confuse myself, actually. I'm out.
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if betfair dont 'pinch the spread' there is no money to be made except comission...
that's something Betfair should make clear, do they or don't they? |
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dstyle, it is the facility to see the bets coming that allows them to circumvent the delay
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i doubt very much they circumvent the delay, they will just match after the delay surely?
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Latalomne
you need to take Adonis approach to see it in smaller discrete time frames heads v's tails market time = 0.0001 market opens four customers symiltaniously eneter bets and the market forms at time = 1.0001 as follows heads LHS (1.9) (2.0) RHS Tails LHS(1.95) (2.1) RHS time = 1.0002 customer, enters back tails at 2.0 ( which is not available) time = 2.0002 betfair recieve a bet that cannot be matched ( in the outcome orderbook) but can be in the event orderbook, by matched it with the heads Back at 2.0 time = 2.0003 market is left as follows heads LHS (1.9) (blank) RHS Tails LHS(1.95) (2.1) RHS everyone is matched where they wanted. the 2.0 backer of heads can still cancel his bets instantly upto time = 2.0001, but then he will be matched |
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that was an in running market with the coin in the air spinning
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Scripophilist.
PMSL, All the common conspiracy posters are out in force I see. The fact is there is no overage, no loose pennies, not clock beating your bets are getting matched more efficiently, surely that's what everybody wants. I don't see what the problem is? The people posting here aren't novices. The way bets are matched has changed imo. I honestly hope you're right, but my experience tells me otherwise |
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The delay does not change anything, bets would simply be queued & then put on the exchange & matched using exactly the same algorithm as non-in play markets.
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Does not explain what happened in marcus' post of 19:37
Could it match his 1.1 with a bet on the other player even when there's a better price being laid on the player he's betting on? |
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and - more importantly, who pockets the difference.
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Just tested it in running on tennis and pre off in a minor football market and it WASN'T matching them! Either I was seeing things earlier or the Shiraz I had at lunchtime was better than I thought it was.
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weatherman2004
write the bets down in order give them all a unique 5 decimal point time stamp - and you willsee what happened to marcus is perfectly possible what you see on the screen might be refreshed 20 times a second betfair are probably working with upto 3000 discreet time intervals in each second even more, the bet ID effectovely breaks each second into as many intervas as required as they are proicessed numerically. chosing which precise time to cancel a bets from the que has some interesting intricasies in my mind - but then people never appreciated Adnois - who would have removed any questions 4 years ago with timestamps |
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The Magician (1) 06 Mar 19:48
( oh how I miss adonis) lol, so the loose change funds aren't destination invariant; they're destination betfair. Bring back adonis! |