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wonby10
two points 1) bets should be matched fairly ( a condition of the Gamlbing act and the GC code). Betfair are hypocrtical on this issue, they protect thier customers from the most massive market impacting events on soccer, and antepost Horse markets - but feed them to the fast picture/courtsiders for a 20% fee on all other markets Horse falling and dying at the first hurdle is a bigger market impacting event than, a massive underdog sneaking a goal against MU in the football... MU will probably come back the dead horse will not. the GC cannot allow bets to stand that occur under such unfair terms - and we all know they do Such a horse bet, if tested by appeal would almost certainly be cancelled... and I think ultimately that will happen in the near future. 2) companies (not just exchanges) that want to offer IR should be legally obliged to provide thier customer with a seperate IR Pnl or account statement - to ensure customers can transparently see thier PnL naturally this would fullfill the legal requirements of 'transparency' the GC mentiuon I asked for this - but had no discussion or conclusion on the topic. |
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The Magician, how do you feel about bets matched at 1000 (or any price) in an event such as soccer or tennis when the score is impossible to happen (eg. 2-0 when a team is already 3-1 up)?? Betfair seem to think that it's fine and have no problems with it given recent correspondance.
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CurlyBlues
if you have such bets take them to the GC and they will cancel them if this is betfair position it legally untenable in my mind. are they matched clearly after the fact ( or as the fact happens) |
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how would i get such a bet matched?
if I place a 0-0 back bet, I assume this is cancelled as the goal goes in.... so I must place a new back bet on the 0-0 after the market reopens??? is that correct? |
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I had an accident with my laptop mouse when it self clicked on gruss on a price to back 0-0 whilst they had been 1 down for 10 minutes or so. It was only £20 and I wasn't too bothered about it - gave me another reason to buy a new laptop, but Betfair told me that their site doesn't allow them to remove these scores inplay and that therey wouldn't be doing anything to protect people in the future.
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Curleyblues
irregardless of betfairs imperfect site or not.... the bet was struck in breech of the law. If it was in the last six months send it to the GC and they will tell betfair to cancel it. |
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Is that true about the GC having the power to cancel matched bets placed after the event? Does this apply to every market? Who/where can i go to find out more please?
Surely it cant be that difficult to suspend betting on lines in which the outcome CANNOT be achieved. I understand that putting a few pounds on at 1000 can free up funds to play the other lines if you so wish. In this case, why cant they install a pop-up box which informs you that the only benefit of betting on lines in which the outcome had already been determined is to free up funds and that there is ZERO chance of winning? |
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Betfair are not being hypocritical. They are being sensible. Betfair can suspend the market in football because it is practical to do so. It's not practical to do so in horse racing. Few people who bet in horse racing in running jumps races aren't aware of the risks of this happening. It's just common sense.
I don't bet in American Football, Rugby or Cricket but I can see the argument for the suspension of the markets in those sports. Indeed I think it's for the best if they did, but then again maybe their customers don't want this. With sports such as Darts Snooker and Tennis there just isn't a practical and common sense alternative. |
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I agree, suspending markets in horse racing is not an option, and if they increase the delay as the did with darts they will kill it. I personally think the warning is enough. People need to take responsibility for their own actions and losses rather than blaming others, and I do not think they should be nannied.
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Any bet placement delay is nannying.
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It is. I think it should be zero for horse racing.
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I agree with the BankMan on this. The track players are the ones who are exploiting everyone else with the fast pictures now. They are skilless muppets and need to be taken out of the market. If Magician can do this from his new programmes good luck to him.
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If Magician can do this from his new programmes good luck to him
oh, the irony |
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He has started he won't do it. Although I suspect he couldn't anyway.
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slayer
I have never stated that I wont... and I assure you I could, I think you know me well enough to knwow that if I am very confident I can - I proably can |
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Magician:
Re: Your post (part of your GC Submission?) Bets should be matched fairly (A condition of the Gambling Act and the GC Code). This appears to actually contain two points. So called |
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The "skilless muppets" have the only skill required in betting. The skill to make money . The route taken to achieve this is irrelevant.
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Anyone that thinks everyone who bets in-running realises the disadvantage they're at is totally delusional. This is particularly true where there are long bet placement delays that the mugs actually believe are there to protect them. Not everyone reads the forum. The strange thing is, betfair claim people are winning too fast yet they persist with their inadequate "some transmissions ...." small print warnings. You'd think they would try to educate them so they might churn their money over a bit longe and earn betfair more commission. At least they are looking at introducing the sperate IR PnL.
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feck. your point about in running mugs is something i have wondered about. i bet inrun myself, but dont even watch the race, its just part of a strategy im trying. anyway i must be missing something because i would of thought with the increase of trading shops, on track boys, dodgy raw feed boys there must come a time when the slow pic mugs lose all their money and its left to all the above to fight it out between them. could be wrong though. just dont know.
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2 examples of an atr player unaware of delays....
He backs the second in a tight finish and gets matched at 100-plus because others saw it 3 secs before him and were laying any price they could on his loser. He lays the winner in a tight finish and gets matched at 1.01 because others saw it 3 secs before him and were taking any price they could on this winner. If said individual cant work out from the odds he obtained that he might be behind the action there is no hope for him. Just my opinion. |
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my example would relate to 2 horses say neck-and-neck at the 1/2f point but one of them a length clear at the line. And twice recently on SIS i have laid winners at 1.01 when trying to lay higher. Both times the horse was in 2nd on my pictures when i submitted.
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so noodles do u think u were beat by trackside/raw feed boys?
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"What I said is they have a massive advantage over non fast pic players."
Tough. Players studying form have a massive advantage over those that don't. Players who use a one-click piece of software have a massive advantage over those who don't. Players whose bets go through the UK-based servers have a massive advantage over those who go though the Malta servers. Players who have an IQ over 100 have a massive advantage of those who have an IQ of a half-brick. The list goes on.... What d'you want exactly ? Only allow bets from those who have exactly the same physical, psychological, geographical, technological attributes as each other ? Laughable..... |
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yeah must be statman
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lol, well said diddy
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diddy i agree, thats life. not **ing about it couldnt really give a toss, just yacking about it . like your examples though. noodles do u think the money pond will get smaller for guys that are soley dependant on having a time and fast finger edge?
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diddy i agree, thats life. not **ing about it couldnt really give a toss, just yacking about it . like your examples though. noodles do u think the money pond will get smaller for guys that are soley dependant on having a time and fast finger edge?
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If a player studying form picks out the same horse as someone who likes the name then they can both place a bet at the same price being offered. The player studying form isn't getting any major advantage with the prices being offered. It's the skill in spotting when the prices are wrong that makes the edge.
In-running betting should be the same, it should be about the skillful people making money from those with less skill not who has the fastest pics, fastest connection or best software. |
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Stevie
Couldn't agree more. Would you play roulette with a**wheel? How about loaded dice? Poker with marked cards perhaps? Any "technical" edge means that the playing field isn't level. |
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you guys have a point too. lol must get off this fence!. what you are describing though is your and many others ideal of what betfair should be. the reality has worked out differently though.personally i dont think its the fast pic boys that are making the big money,i think a hanful of people with a smart maths trading strategy and some clever software/bots they have built themselves that are raking it in every day. no form study required.
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people who bet in running without up to date feeds are just idiots. idiots deserve to lose. the most vocal people on here just want things their own way so they can sit back and fleece the idiots themselves from the comfort of their sofa
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i was playing betfair poker the other day and repeatedly some guy was making me think he had a poor hand and so i bet big only to find out he had tricked me and i lost the lot .. happened nearly 50 times in the same game .. now im £20,000 down! ive saved all the game historys and sending them to the GC for them to get BF to cancel the bets though .. all will be fine!
... ... ... its April fools day .. gotcha .. |
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tam surely those idiots with money can not be an ever ending supply? maybe im wrong, maybe the supply of slow pic people, 99% of whom WILL lose their money is never ening.!
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ending
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Diddycoy, If someone created a time machine from old car parts and was betting already knowing the results would that be fair? After all, he's had the intelligence to build the machine and there's nothing stopping anyone from building their own. In such a case the issue would be should an exchange that's worried about some punters winning too fast allow him to continue to fleece their less intelligent clients or should they just dock him 20% and let him kill off their client base?
That is what the issue is here. Not whether fast pic players are bad people or what degree of talent they have. What's the point of advertising 20% better odds then building disadvantages into the interface that more than erodes the supposed edge over bookmakers? Incredibly they have a 1 second bet placement delay on horse racing to give fast pic players added protection. I suppose You could ask the same question regarding form experts but I'd think their edge over pin-pickers is pretty tame compared to the fast pic advantage. There's also no doubt that fast pics have an advantage. Identifying the difference between a form expert and someone having a good run isn't so clear cut. |
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Magician, you didn't directly say you wouldn't but you did imply it. And you are right, I do know you, and you are someone who couldn't have been exploiting non-triers for years, but hasn't. And I suspect I am not wrong in thinking you will do what you consider to be morally correct in this case to.
I've been thinking about how to do this. One has to tell the bot what is going on, and it must be live, not derived from tv. There used to be a website with the position and speed of each horse given at regular intervals. It was certainly possible to scrape that site but it was never worth it as it was delayed too much. Think it went under anyway, but maybe such a site exists again with a very small delay, which would make the project possible. The second option is to be on course but with sufficiently advanced software that one wins the race against others. Voice operated bots is one option. That way you cut out the human reaction time in telling a colleague and getting them to respond. Alternatively just pressing enter to tell the bot to lay the shortest odds horse might also work, as it is probally still quicker than all other courtsiders. I don't expect you to tell me, but I can see it might be possible. Might even have a go myself with the latter idea. |
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If fast pics. are available to everyone prepared to go to the trouble of getting them, where's the unfairness ?
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Even if your unfairness point was valid artie, it's a myth that fast pictures are available to all. It costs up to £300 a week for access to a trading shop / home sis. Only a small percentage of the poulation could afford to pay that.
The original clock beating method was available to anyone who had the inclination and intelligence to find it. Do you consider that those people who were fleeced by the clock beaters (while under the impression they were protected by the delay) were beaten fair and square? |
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The Magician, just out of interest, when you predict the result of a football match incorrectly do you often find that it's the referee's fault?
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No such thing as "fair and square" in betting Feck, as you well know.
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