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#2 is famous enough to google.
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You're arguing with someone who agrees with you on the points you're making. My sole point is that it's a massive advantage to see the result before someone else. There's no hidden meaning in that point, just clearing up some of the rhetoric that people are using to help their arguments.
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No chatname specified/Magician,
Why are Betfair doing this? They have finally realised they dont want people winning too quickley (hence the Premium Charge) yet they send a paper to the GC saying IR betting is all fair. Do you think everyone inside Betfair genuinely believe there is not a subgroup of IR players winning too quickly? Or are they affraid of letting the general public know one of their unique selling points has a problem? Having spent a year of my life at the racecourse I do not believe that the players I saw day in day out on laptops and on the phones betting inrunning were not at a serious advantage. If Betfair can show me statistics on those individuals showing they are not winning above average amounts by seing the action before at home punters then I will be quiet on this issue. Until they do this I think this issue is far from resolved. Good luck if you can deploy something to put the snug skilless players out of business. |
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lori plenty of idiots on betfair im sure... shall we protect them from pre-event betting too? Shall we ban any1 who hasnt read the form from betting on the national???
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Not argung with you! I see where you are coming from.
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Magician.. What is your problem here?
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crossed lines then wonby , cool :)
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I'm not even against fast pics noodles, im just against pretending they dont help :D
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:D
However, we have gone from 'massive advantage' to 'help' :) |
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Excellent result. Betfair is making it harder for skilled players to win closing down IR betting would have made it harder.
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Frog2
I am not certain anymore what Betfair want, think, or understand.... I think there are some people that want to put the FAIR, back into betfair..... and then I think there are some people that partially tell me that because that is what they think I want to hear and there is little argument against some of my points. I also think they (or any company) moves slowly.... they dont have the time or patience to drill into some of the data they have to run the company better.... I (and you )have asked questions of them. They have clearly never considered? Now they are looking at some of them They are running to stand still with new API, games, colours interfaces etc etc... to get new customers I think they should understand and protect those they have Some widely held (probably misquoted) |
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wonby10 lengths
my probelm is 1) I think I can win money on here for 100 years - at a very slowish rate ( i will leave my bots to my children) 2) I want betfair to be sustainable 3) I think many elements of thier business ( currently unfair) jeardise that sustainability to be fair Betfair have already chnaged severla things in response to my discussions and arguments 1) bigger warnings on IR (frog also drove this through 3 years ago) 2) cancelling photo bets when hoovered |
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The Magician (6), I think it is fair to say that the left hand is not talking to the right hand inside BFHQ. Some defend inrunning saying no one wins a dispportionate amount while others set up a Premium Charge to trap people who win a dispportinate amount. But this is from a company that introduced random arcade games on the same day as they released a new charge on their loyal customers.
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Frog2
I have tried to explain to betfair that taxing the ill gotten gains - is not the same as stopping thier good customers from getting robbed in the first place... I think they reluctantly conceed this.... and more and more you will see steps to improve things.. but.... Money today is alluring, even when PV of future cahs is higher than ever |
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The Magician (6) 31 Mar 00:08
wonby10 lengths my probelm is 1) I think I can win money on here for 100 years - at a very slowish rate ( i will leave my bots to my children) 2) I want betfair to be sustainable 3) I think many elements of thier business ( currently unfair) jeardise that sustainability These are not problems! I ask again What is your problem here? |
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if 3) jeapardises 2) which jerpardise 1) it is a porblem???
you mjust see that? |
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Magician.. Let me ask in another way here... You disagree with the GC's papers, what exactly is it you disagree with?
Also you mention cash being "thieved" earlier? By who? From whom? How?and When? (I will respond tomorrow to you, assuming you have a reply) |
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wonby10lengths
Have you read the papers yet? I have I also wrote a 10 page submission, which they do not even have the decency to address the two specific pints I made... The specifically mention one in the repsonse document, but avoid it in the position paper. presumably becasue they have no reaosn to block my request - and it fits thier remit entirly, but becasue the recieved opposition to it from the companies... or at least assumed they would recieve opposition to it. rather than reiterate my points again to a person I have no recolection of discussing anything with in 6 years, I will post my submission up here tomorrow. you migth fin that comment a little annoying but the number of times I have written lengthy respoinses to have my inquisitors disapear forever is amazing... have you posted under another name for the last 5 years? |
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lol. The magician was too cowardly to even give a proper name. Fancy sending in a submission signed "The Magician" No wonder they dont take you seriously.
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If I sent it as 'jeff blot' what woudl they think?
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would have loved to have seen henry spurways submission - probably still going on about golf bets getting hoovered after the putt goes in(someone mentioned this to him in easibet once about 5 years ago and it seems to have been the basis of his campaign ever since). with guys like up against betfair its no wonder it was a whitewash.
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what a surprise - frog and magician spouting more self indulgent carp YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
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morning bankman - hows it going ?
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not bad doubled,
i'm still pestering the powers that be about improving picture speed but don't seem to be getting very far - i'll keep plugging away though. |
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good man - you are probably aware that there is a trading shop open in Newcastle now so that makes life a bit easier - cheers
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yep, i take it you're in attendance? how far away is it from you?
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Lori 30 Mar 23:08
Just to be clear on this. Knowing the outcome of a race before someone else knows the outcome is a massive advantage. I don't care about most of this debate but lets not talk silliness. You don't know the outcome until the jockeys have weighed in. In the past 2 weeks some players have done huge amounts. Fontwell last week the jockey weighed in light and was disqualified, the previous week at Ayr the jockeys had taken the wrong course and a horse that finished way down the field was awarded the race, then there are stewards inquiris and objections. It's far from as clearcut as you say. |
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don't forget that recently a horse was 10 lengths clear 50 yards from the line and the jockey fell off
- cost some people an awful lot of money |
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I'm with wonby10 on this. The same opportunity exists for everyone. Does company A have an unfair advantage over company B because they have invested in the latest technology?
Magician, No way is this sustainable for 100 years. For many more significant reasons than are cited here. You should make as mush cash as possible in the short term before it all ends. Instead of all this stuff go out and buy yourself a silly pair of shorts (or 6!) and prepare for a warm retirement. |
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common sense prevails! very good.
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I thought it was a very good article which showed a very good understanding of the subject. You'll never read anything in the Racing Press that shows that level of understanding. I didn't agree with absolutely everything written but I agree with the conclusions which seem to apply common sense and which do leave the process open to review.
I'd be intersted to know what percentage of trading room players pay premium charges rather than the quoted 54.8% of people making a profit over a certain period as then we'd have a real figure that we could compare to overall usage figure of 0.3% (although the 0.3% is a misleading figure in itself, if you argue that it isn't misleading then that comparison is the one that would give the best handle on fast picture advantage). The other important thing to consider that of the 45.2% who are losing how many of them are losing to the other 54.8% and how many people are losing to customers without fast pictures. The benefit of fast picures is a very big advantage over someone that hasnt got them. Any argument to the contrary is just nonsense. But you cant stop people having fast pictures and the more people that have fast pictures the less the advantage that the fast pictures give so banning trading room fast pictures is counter productive. |
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If fast pics. are available to anyone prepared to go to the trouble of getting them ( I can't be bothered), then there is no unfairness.
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Magician: Having asked the question
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clydebank,
obviously i cant speak for other trading rooms, but there's currently 7 regulars in ours - down from a peak of 10 about a year ago. so far there's 2 of us paid 1 week for of PC each. as time goes by maybe more of us will get caught as we enter good run periods but generally speaking the very nature of how we bet would mean its unlikely. we don't have any players constantly trying to make green books every race, betting 1.01 on the run in, laying at 1000 etc. although all our strategies differ we all amount to effectively taking a position on the race. i think the "outsiders" idea of what people do in trading rooms is probably a lot different to the reality, i would imagine(and i am guessing here) that it would be the track players that are more likelier to be getting the regular PC charges than the trading rooms. |
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Magician
I really don't think there is a problem that needs addressing personally. I play horses in-running using delayed pictures, and have made a small profit. The only time it's an issue is near the end of the race, but it's just common sense not to get involved in the last furlong or two. I remember in the early days betfair used to suspend with 1 furlong to go. I would not oppose such a suggestion. What I would oppose was and suggestion that the delay should be increased. This would kill the fun of it for me and I would stop betting in-running. What is your proposed solution to the problem? |
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I love how they say the pros protect the novices:
"One individual believed that the majority of people betting in-running were professionals. However, they noted that novice customers were protected by these professionals, as the professionals made the exchange markets efficient." |
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the bank man 2 out of 7 in percentage represents about 100 times the average percentage of active customers who pay premium charges.
of course from what you've said the above just highlights how you can paint a distorted picture with selective figures. I'm surprised by what you've said, but it just shows how competitive the market place is. |
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clydebank,
i've no doubt that if they had brought the PC in 3 or 4 years ago exchange shop users would have been harder hit by it. the fact is that we're way behind the seemingly ever increasing amounts of track players and have had to adapt accordingly, generally playing further and further out during the race. if the GC(or anyone really) identify exchange shop users as fast pic players then they are just plain behind the times i'm afraid. |
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the bank man I was told second hand that a well known forumite and his son (the inference was that they were a father and son team) were making £500k a year betting horses ir. That was around 5 years ago. Probably much harder now mind.
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Rollo
that conclusions is laughable - and sadly it originates ( or is at least futher promoted) by individuals in Betfair that; 1) either should know better 2) do know better but suprress thier won knowledge for business reasons. niether is very admirable |