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muqbil
what about a terminal outside the perimeter of the course? dont mean to be pedantic, but I dont think licensing addresses the issue |
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Would a terminal/ user outside the perimeter be in a position to view the pictures legally?
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Well, the pictures would still be in the 'public' domain - you would pay for them much as you do now - its the premises where the activity is taking place that would be the only realistic way of licensing
But I cant see the inclination of the authorities to do it - if they did, it gets very messy and not easily controlled imo - and still would not address the 'fairness' objective |
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simple soloution get a mobile phone with betfair installed and back/lay inrunning while watchin sis @ bookies
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You are missing the point mate your pics are upto 7 seconds behind still....lol
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Won money today IR on ATR as I do everyday.
GET A LIFE. |
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While the universe is delighted for you Amanda, it does not revolve around you.
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I keep thinking about this and, in my opinion, find that the "need for speed" is too heavily emphasized.
In summer of 2004, I had a lay on a horse at Epsom. It had been at around 8/1 at the off but I had caught it earlier in the day at 6/1. As I watched the race unfold, about half way through the mile or so, I looked at the horse and the other runners and could tell the horse was travelling easily while others were labouring with the going. Visually, I could tell it was going to win and decided to get out. I went to trade out thinking I would get around 4/1 but got 11 or so at the stake I had put down. A free bet, so to say (my math of redding or greening out was in its infancy). The horse did win. My decision was made through visuals of a horse running in the middle of the pack well out. The split second would not have made a difference. I find this with tennis, as well. People bet point-to-point. The value on this is watching people "chase those points". I find that people looking at "point to point" don't really understand the sport, how it will unfold. Someone once told me that the odds prior to a match are based on "the whole match". Check out the spikes in tennis. 4/6 shots go to 2/1 then reach down and land it. I remember watching Milan vs Liverpool in 2007. I remember being in the pub watching Milan and realizing they were going to tie and could see the push was on. Faster pictures wouldn't have made a difference. I realize that some trade and rely on the pictures but, overall, I think success as a punter and trader comes from being able to look at the overall picture rather than the moment. And, sorry to repeat myself, if you don't like the conditions of an investment, a bet, a deal, whatever, then you shouldn't get involved. And if you do, you have no reason to complain since you were aware of the conditions involved. One survivor's opinion. |
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The benefit of fast pics increases the closer they get to the finish, it only takes a few big punters to scoop up all the value prices and crash the market before people watching slower pics have a chance to get matched.
Slow pic players have to learn to adapt their strategies as well as being good race-readers and form judges if they are to have any chance of being profitable. The point is that this should not be the case, more effort needs to be made to level the playing field and only Betfair are capable of this imo. |
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Shapeshifter, that's an excellent post and makes a point that rarely gets made about in running punting. Successful in running punters playing from home are the ones who anticipate what will unfold and the ones who struggle often play into the hands of the fast pic players by trying to have a bet AFTER something has unfolded imho
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It's a point that has been made many times on the horse racing forum on these threads. ATR players have to anticipate whats going to happen, if you wait to react whats happening on the screen you only get matched when you get it wrong.
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JB 24, i read all of these types of threads here and on the horse racing forum and i disagree that it's a point that gets made often. Such threads are usually dominated by failed home in running punters happy to blame their losses on a disadvantage they are incapable of overcoming and unwilling to admit any shortcomings in their approach.
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I have made this point many times in the past as have several others. Manchesterskytrain has made this point several times quite recently in some of his slow pic threads.
The issue that needs addressing is that ATR players should not have to be at the disadvantage of having to anticipate what's going to happen whilst others with faster pics are able to react to events on screen as they actually happen. It discourages anyone without access to fast pics from getting involved and must surely affect long term liquidity in these markets. |
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JB24, i agree with the 2nd paragraph of your last post but, unfortunately, we are in the business of dealing with the way things are and not how we want them to be. Nobody would be happier than me if a level playing field ever comes to fruition but i'm not holding my breath.
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Just to add the discussion of a level playing field, the only place in the world where this occurs for IR horseracing betting is in Australia during Melbourne Cup week. The reason is, the only place where you can watch the almost 40 races at Flemington for the week are on a free to air TV network. No other broadcaster (other than Betfair who streamed these races over the net) are able to show these races 'live.' The two pay-tv horseracing channels (who normally are on about a two second delay) had to wait for the race to finish before replaying the race.
The outcome of all this. No one can complain about **ing. But that said those who are normally skilled in this area will always have an advantage, because faster pictures don't correspond to more profits. You still have to do your form and you must be able to read a race and react correctly and quickly. If IR betting was a walk in the park, then everyone who has tried using a trading room in the UK would now be doing so full-time. I'm guessing that's not the case. That said, I'm all for a more equitable playing field and most of the aforementioned discussions on this topic. But just a few questions. Am I **ing because I have the fastest broadband available? Is it also **ing that my computer is quicker than most and that I've tweaked my software to enable me to outperform the next guy? All these and other factors add up. There are many factors one should consider before placing any single bet and always remember that gambling is indeed the hardest way to make an easy living! |
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In Running, as does all Gambling, must be Legal.
The GA (Gambling Commission) cite Part 1 Section 9 of the Gambling Act 2005,this allows In Running Betting.Here it is. Betting: general (1)In this Act |
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Outlier, I used to make those same arguments, quite passionately. But in reality you are talking a few hundred milliseconds at most.
This is different from someone who backs a horse in good faith yet it has already fallen and the track players have taken the lot. It's akin to backing a non runner, at the time the bet was struck the horse was already flat out on the ground. With the new rules, the previous flimsy argument about remounting cannot be used. I used to be of the opinion; "The warnings are sufficient blah blah blah". In reality the delays benefit only the track players and now to a lessor extent the sis players. Obviously bf have tried to redress the balance slightly by use of a premium charge, this is good for them but not the punters at home that are still being fleeced at the same rate. |
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ewood 17 Nov 01:19
Shapeshifter, that's an excellent post and makes a point that rarely gets made about in running punting. Successful in running punters playing from home are the ones who anticipate what will unfold and the ones who struggle often play into the hands of the fast pic players by trying to have a bet AFTER something has unfolded imho Cheers ewood, an attitude I actually learnt from day-trading on the stock market. I was notorious for buying 600 shares on an IPO then, as the price rose, threw a hundred at a time rather than waiting for the peak and crash within 30 minutes (what a scam that world was!! circa 1999) In 2004/05, I met with betfair to discuss being part of their Canadian team that was based out of Toronto. Their plan was to target the major players in Canada. I basically confirmed what they already knew which was they were mainly based in Toronto/Niagra, Halifax, Calgary and Vancouver. I contacted a friend of mine who had more of what betfair were looking for. He did his own research including visiting China Town in Toronto. There he found a team with satellite feeds from around the world and multiple screens trading the markets, complete with pit boss calling the shots. They had UK racing and they had one or two desks focused on trading then playing horses in-running, complete with satellite feeds. It made me rethink any thoughts of getting involved with in-running. This was at a time when the liquidity on in-running was not what it was today. And one room was that focused. Imagine taking on four, five, six, ___? plus all the punters who had a better situation than I did. Why bother. I didn't want to be the sucker at the table. Do I trade in-running on sports and horses? yes to both. Sports, the strategy is to trade several positions set out. For horses, when I do play, and not always, the conditions of the race have to be right. From there, I will "listen", no pictures, and will trade according to how the money is moving coupled with how I anticipate the run. Someone once told me the most profitable players on betfair rarely, if ever, post on the forum. I now know three that I meet with on a regular basis who have never. One has the range of feeds. One has delayed racing but doesn't mind since it is more for his note taking on horses (he has a little dictaphone and will pause and record throughout with names. His wife, now a retired legal secretary, puts them into his turftrax notebook for him. Better than lawn bowling, I guess ;) ) So you have to ask yourself how much you make and is it worth the risk. Some of you will say "yes". Some of you that aren't doing well or as well in-running will probably think it is an element that will turn the table for you. The fact remains at the end of the day is that there are only so many slices of the pie anyways and perhaps focusing your energy on the tools you have available, including your ability to select successful plays, rather than on something you don't have will make 2010 a better year. One survivor's opinion |
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Okay, simplistic as it may seem and feel free to brush aside:
If you were playing poker with six people and the house said that two of the other players would be allowed to see the River card after you had placed your last bet, would you play? If you did, you are aware that others would have an edge handicapping you. I know, I know, as I said, brush it aside. But I mentioned this before that the past few years betting on hockey, I lost alot of bets because I didn't have all the line-up info. Now I have feeds for every team that give info right up to the puck drop. 6 out of 7 plays are winners this year. More importantly of the 5 others I selected BUT did not play because of info I received up to the puck drop, 4 would have been losers. Take some of this on board. If you don't like the conditions of in-running, reassess where you can focus your energy rather than swimming against a current. |
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The GB and racing forum are packed with people making a living using atr. Many of them claim the delay doesn't matter that much because it's all about race reading. The fast pic players tell us it's not free money because you're still playing against good race readers with fast pics.
Are we to take it then that the fast pic race readers are the sh1te under the shoes of slow pic race readers or are slow pic genuises mostly fast pic players trying to rope in mugs? I recall on a market maker thread zeeny (the market maker?) claimed most of his tennis bets were made during actual play. In a later thread he claimed mugs who bet during actual tennis play deserve all they get. Surely shell and pea merchants wouldn't tell lies? |
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Feck, you are exaggerating by saying the horse racing forum is packed with people making money using Atr pictures and i'm sure the ones that do exist don't claim to be a genius. I once contributed to a thread on the horse racing forum after i had gone through 12 months of my in running bets and split them into bets at Atr tracks and bets at Ruk tracks and was staggered to see i had a higher win ratio on Atr. Of course, i was shot down in flames for making such claims and i must have another agenda and i'm lying to try and encourage people to play at home because i've got fast pics etc so i tread carefully these days as i do get annoyed when my integrity is questioned. As i posted earlier when agreeing with Shapeshifter's post, it's the ability to anticipate what happens next that will make or break the home in running player. From my point of view, that ability comes from watching races again and again, making lots of notes, knowing courses inside out and where the fences/hurdles are, being able to race read, being able to judge the race pace and which of the runners that suits etc and i know the amount of time and effort i put into it and i do that because i know the disadvantages i face by playing at home. You say home in running players will claim the delay doesn't matter but it is the delay that will have shaped their whole approach to in running betting and they will have the mindset to use some or all of the qualities i have mentioned above to try and combat it. As for the fast pic players, i would guess that they will fall into 2 categories. Category a) would be people with my mindset who will be able to enter and exit a market at better prices than me and would be able to do so for larger amounts because of their advantage and category b) would be people who don't have that mindset and stick to race situations where seeing it 1st is crucial, i.e fallers, horses making mistakes, race changing manouevres at the end of races etc. Generalising and calling all fast pic players category b types does many of them a disservice. In my opinion, a lot of the people who fail at home in running betting are the category b types who don't have a chance unless they have a fast pic advantage.
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The post was not directed at anyone personally ewood. I'm not saying it cannot be done (I'm in front myself although I bet very little ir) but there will be no shortage of people trying to suck the mugs in.
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Vital
[b](3)A transaction that relates to the likelihood of anything occurring or not occurring may be a bet within the meaning of subsection (1) despite the facts that |
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That rule was delivered to them in a brown envelope (NAP).
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birch2,i am persuing the meaning of the regulation you highlight.
But i know this(i think i do) this regulation has nothing to do with in running. Indeed i would wager that no mention of In Running Betting appears anywhere in the Gambling Act. For whatever reason the Gambling Commission are going against it's own aims on this matter. |
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Is it possible for Betfair to do as the original post asked and void bets on fallers??? Wouldn't they need to know the exact time(in real time as the on course fast pic players see it) that a horse falls to police this and would that be possible?
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It would certainly be possible, ewood. It would mean a lot of manual work though for bf.
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Do any of the techies know if flash technology could deliver live pics in less than a sec on the net?
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Would it be the same for horses pulling up or breaking down mid race? What about a scenario where a horse clatters a fence but doesn't fall but has to be immediately pulled up through injury? Would people want the bets voided from the point it makes the mistake which led to the injury or at the point it was pulled up? Not being pedantic but just thinking that some situations may not be so black and white.
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Vital
The GA (Gambling Commission) cite Part 1 Section 9 of the Gambling Act 2005,this allows In Running Betting. I sense it may try to cover a wager like ' I bet you £5 that x beat y in the 1972 derby' - but this isnt a bet you would get with any Licensed Betting Operator - this is a bet between mates down the pub So in the absence of no specific mention of IR betting, then rules under 'Betting general' should apply - you would think On magicians thread a while back, you brought out a different contradiction on 'fair play' in this Gambling Act - perhaps if I get the time I may read the lot and persue it - but hold on.....I dont want to stop IR, so best left well alone Is it just that no-one in the GC understands IR, to be able to apply sensible rules/law to support its main objectives. Or, maybe they do, but dont want to embark on the legal minefield |
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birch2,It is about two points.
Yes it is about the question of fairness,which i have raised with the Commission, but the main point is a legal one. The Commission says Section 9 allows in running,if that stands up i will seek a change in the interpretation of the that regulation. Regarding fairness i will continue to persue this. |
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Why not ban all gambling ? After all its never a level playing field.
Total gibberish frog |
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"Do any of the techies know if flash technology could deliver live pics in less than a sec on the net?"
Not a hope in hell as the video needs encoding first |
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That is incorrect, I posted a link from the BBC website during the Queens Club tennis tournament in June and those Flash pics were less than a second behind the BBC analogue pictures.
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Vital
Are you an IR player? If so, you do realise the poss consequences of this dont you |
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frog2 15 Nov 19:31 I am surprised that The Magican has nothing to say about the new development re:fallers. Off all the people on Betfair he is the prime candiate to contest it. Frog I saw the development - and it is signifcant in my mind, and will be tested soon enough. |
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"That is incorrect, I posted a link from the BBC website during the Queens Club tennis tournament in June and those Flash pics were less than a second behind the BBC analogue pictures."
Interesting....What was the originating source of the video ? |
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It was the same as the BBC TV feed.
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This idea of BF having the ability to 'disabling' betting on a horse that has fallen is a non starter
They dont take out drivers in F1 when they have crashed They dont take out golfers who have finished and cannot win They dont take out 0-0 in football, when the score is 3-3 It goes hand in hand with the essence of IR, how many have lost 1000's by hitting the wrong horse, or by hitting the wrong part of the screen - I know I have - its all part of the 'experience' in this form of betting I agree the time factors are an issue in fair play, but once you sign on to this site, you ought to know the sort of arena your in. Its ludicrous to ask Bf to instantly take out 'runners' in any IR event. |
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birch, it won't happen. They will change the rules of the betting ON betfair based on the rules presented by the BHA.
Read the rules when they come up. If you are not happy, don't wager in-running. |