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did jesus of the new testament exist??
did jesus of the new testament exist??
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Replies: 563
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Yes yes all that stuff might have happened , I'm not saying it didn't.
But this is the fundamental problem we have, no one alive today had seen a miracle or anything of that nature Sorry that's how it is. |
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like a man coming back from the dead?
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I better say goodnight zorro, : ) it's too late
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see jesus' job was to be the sacrifice. Nothing else.
the miracles were to show his authority over the world. a higher authority than creation. people focus on the miracles because they are daft in the head. it's spectacle. watch this - dafty - you'll explain it away, like everything else. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_-s-KobZ64 |
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explanation please?
Isaiah (700 years before Christ) gives a description of the messiah. What his actions will be. Daniel does the same and goes further - he tells you when he comes to the day. Daniel lived 500 years before Jesus. skip 300 years - Ptolomy II of Egypt, ancestor to Ptolomy(alexanders General who inherited Egypt from Alexander's empire) Ptolomy translates all the jewish old testament books from Hebrew to Greek, greek being a more precise language. Both Hebrew texts and the Septuagint(greek) exist today. Still 200 years before Christ makes an appearance. in 33 AD - Jesus enters the gate of Jerusalem (later walled up by the muslims to stop the jewish messiah ? how dumb are these guys?) Palm Sunday - the crowd declare Jesus king and the messiah. three days later he is executed. No proof of God ? How do you orchestrate the whole of history ? from 700 BC ? Who is that clever, what cabal of super geniuses are doing it? All to get you into a pew on a sunday and stare at some old guys head? |
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Zorro
Thankfully I missed all that you pasted above and I don't think I've got the appetite to sift through it tbh, other than I quickly scrolled through reading the off bit. I noticed you have a strong indignation for Islam, calling them liars etc. Well what are you wasting your time talking to atheists and agnostics for when there are swathes of people who would love to have the 'truth' pointed out to them and are as equally invested in believing themselves correct? I only saw the beginning of the first prophecy example about Israel, but to suggest that the prophecy is complete even in part is down to man carrying it out, not God. Ofc we could see that as artificial in itself, but there's also politics involved rather than religion. Having Israel is very convienient for the west, many of whom arnt religious in the slightest and use it as a road hump to negate the other religious fanatics in the area. As regard the personal jibe about Newton, I think you will find not one scientist to have completed the whole of discoveries, so my assertion that Newton could well have struggled today rings true, otherwise he'd have already sailed through it. Discoveries happen through epiphanies and trial and error, but also to a large degree by chance occurrences, that's why each one only discovers a small part in relation to the bigger picture. Einstein himself got plenty wrong, infact he wasted ten years on a theory that he believed was correct but everyone told him was wrong so he deviated. When it turned out he was correct he became somewhat cynical and ran with theories that he believed to be correct that others said wernt and turned out not to be true. |
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Newton was more intelligent than anyone alive today and would not struggle to understand any scientific concept we have today.
that however, despite what zorro says, is meaningless to anything outside mathematics or science. And certainly nothing to do with religion. |
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His point was that because Newton believed then that gave validity to the religion and I made the point that he may well have been a genius, but it was still an age which was heavily influenced with misconception and almost superstition.
The tasks of science don't get easier with time. I also made the point given somebody who was attempting to answer questions who could not, would default into the well trodden ground of assumption that the stuff unanswered were of gods doing. |
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What Newton believed about religion is one thing., what he proved about religion is something else.
Can zorro point to anything that Newton proved to be true about any religion ? .. I don't know, let's see. |
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That said, it is worth noting that Newton was English and that he was a Christian. So he lived in a society that was Christian and not some other society. This society and this religion produced Newton, and it produced England.
This great and beautiful country. So that is why we should not be so quick to dismiss the beauty and hope of the Christian religion and message. |
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What I'm curious about and hopefully zorro will answer personally rather than vicariously is whether his faith actually manifests itself in every action in reality as being a conflict between good and evil?
So that everything good is the manifestation of God and everything bad has a tinge of Satan in? Do you really believe zorro that anyone who has a different view to you to be a manifestation in concert with the devil perhaps without them even knowing it? |
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What I'm curious about is why someone who has woken up and smelt the coffee, seen through the sham of religion in his teens, should go back to it in his mid-twenties. What happened to make him smell the fire and brimstone lapping at his posterior? I doubt that he will tell us.
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Sometimes a thread gets too long that you can't be arsed reading it all. This is one such thread.
My favourite quote attributed to my favourite scientist. “You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe.” source: http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/599193-you-can-t-convince-a-believer-of-anything-for-their-belief |
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Well said
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I have no fear of hell, that is gone. I cannot be snatched away from the Lord. I believe because God was willing to be the perfect sacrifice. He took every sin from us and he took in all that pain from us. The tree of life, the cross. the title on the cross in three languages. Aramaic, Latin and Greek. Jesus of Nazareth , King of the Jews.
He's the Future King. Jesus would not overthrow the Romans so the Jews believing Isaiah and the other prophets said this is not the Messiah. The messiah will destroy evil and rule on the throne of David. God's plan was always to take 6000 years. Jesus came 2000 years too soon? well NO. He came to drop seed, to give us all redemption. Billions of seeds germinating. He said - Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. What has the CHURCH(believers in Christ) done? Greater than the miracles of Jesus. They have saved souls. You love Evolution and Man's systems. As John Hurt put it. I am not an animal I am a human being. human (n.) Look up human at Dictionary.com "a human being," 1530s, from human (adj.). Its Old English equivalent, guma, survives only in disguise in bridegroom. I embrace the divinity, I have a soul,spirit and body. reinforced by the Holy spirit that renews my soul. You're soul is corrupted with the virus of sin and you will not even consider the medicine. God cannot allow sin into his new creation and must sweep any that embrace it as a risk to the community. to answer Foinavon - i said before further down... I have a brother, growing up we argued about God occasionally. Usually when the tv went off air in the seventies. the little white dot vanished and we would talk. I always thought religion was rubbish and I still do. I got sick of these arguments and looked to the bible to gain weapons to bash over his head. I'd dismantle the bible and using key phrases out of context beat God out of him. It rebounded. Because Jesus is not a man. If you want to deny History. you can believe he was a man. If you want to deny his words which resonate and inspire. he was a man. But the whole book is unexplainable. All the authors? (40) because the book has an integrated woven message. a narrative with a very complex message. It speaks of the past and the future, past man in the future and hints to extra dimensions? it talks about space being stretched, light and time. every word is there for a reason. when you really explore it it opens into vast spaces. Mathew's gospel in it's construction with the number seven, has weird properties that defy explanation? but it's a small facet of the book. Foinavon views the minds of primitive men as if they were idiots. The idiots are us. we sit in front of tv for hours and eat garbage pastes. We poison ourselves with toxins and call it advancement. We tamper with viruses and elements. these authors over a thousand years of writing? what were they thinking did they have a rule book? Why does all their references match up with each other. the blue letter bible shows a consistency in the terms. now look at the god fables of the Greeks, which I liked to read as a child, interesting stories with nice little messages, like any other book. But they don't have extra dimensionality. Look at any book on any shelf? it's stories and some really badly constructed ones. The ancient book has historicity, the Jews sit in rooms to this day and copy out their scrolls and if halfway through they make a mistake... they scrap the whole thing? To get one tiny mistake slip into their holy text is a no go area. Months of work scrapped for a moments slip. You dismiss the words of God as an alien would dismiss a pile of diamonds to be just rocks. A treasure to be used as TP. So God's words will rebound on you. You've chosen separation from God. He gave you his words and you only saw that it impinged on your freedom to pursue sin. |
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LFC1971 - did you see the clip I left last night
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_-s-KobZ64 |
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Foinavon views the minds of primitive men as if they were idiots.
Zorro keeps on misrepresenting me even when I've already corrected him. You can't believe a word he says.  This is what I replied the last time Foinavon Foinavon 26 Jan 17 23:27 Joined: 11 Oct 00 | Topic/replies: 5,739 | Blogger: Foinavon's blog Where did I say that bronze age people were not as smart as people today? We are the beneficiaries of the painstaking work of many thousands of scientists and a few inspired geniuses who discovered that the earth is not the fixed centre of the universe but revolves around a very ordinary star on the edge of a galaxy containing billions of other stars, our galaxy being one amongst billions of others. Men and women who discovered a myriad of other things not known to the bronze age tribes such as the cause of many natural phenomena, rainbows, earthquakes, volcanoes, the water cycle, thunder and lightening etc. In the bronze age, these were mainly attributed to the changing moods of deities. You can probably find examples in your book. |
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Is anyone going to have a stab at the timeline I laid out?
from Isaiah to Jesus? How is it possible? Did it just happen? like the universe being here.. a big mystery. |
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It's pointless zorro.
The gospel writers were embellishing old stories. They knew of the prophecies and made the story fit in order to lend credibility. Incidentally, Given the true church of Jesus is the Catholic Church, it means that only those who are Catholics today are actually following the Church that directly descended from Jesus. Everyone else, including you and me, are going to Hell. The good news is that it's all made up so we all will just die. Nothing to worry about. |
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Vaguely. But they killed him. It would have cheered him up enormously to know a bunch of intolerant old men elected him to be the son of god to further their perverted ends. There were dozens of gospels - all written/edited long after the events they described to suit the wishes of the writers/editors. The Council Of Nicea 325AD was the first big official edit. Bad luck for the Arianists (disliked by Vel) but it did prohibit self-castration so not all bad. The Dead Sea scrolls continue to illuminate the confusion.
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Why didn't he just stop here ?,then when anybody tried to kill him it would make no difference as he would be resurrected
a few hours later then everyone could see him in person or on T.V. and not rely on an eye witness statements writteny a few thousand years ago by disciples who thought it wrong to write the news down the same day or week but thought no I will release the news a few years later..Sounds like fake news to me.. |
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you all seem to think it's about providing proof. About exercising power. Jesus came to give us Grace. To save our souls. Not to reinforce the physical world.
the world gets a short reprieve of a thousand years to tie up loose ends. then it's redundant. Back to the spiritual realm. Do you really think anything could live in a physical world for eternity. I'm bored after fifty years. God's promised heaven is like nothing dreamt of by man. We see God as he truly is? that implies man will be in higher dimensions. So a Jewish book 2000 years old is dealing with things that are beyond modern science now. the gospels that were picked to be in the bible had the holy spirit in them. the spirit of truth. Other gospels were rejected by the spirit. the book of Enoch also did not make it in. Foinavon - the catholic church is not the original church - Saul aka Paul - said call no man Father. God is your father. The people who believe in christ are the church. the temple is the people. Religion is a man made system part of the anti christ system 666. religion 6 a system of man politic/finance 6 a system of man law 6 a system of man All of these systems control man. They condemn man. It's a shortfall of God's perfection. God's number is seven in the bible. Religion is a middleman that is unnecessary - talk to god, who is your father. Not to some clown in a costume. |
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explanation please?
Isaiah (700 years before Christ) gives a description of the messiah. What his actions will be. pierced. a sin offering. Daniel does the same and goes further - he tells you when he comes into Jerusalem to the day. Daniel lived 500 years before Jesus. - when the jews return to the land from babylon, after the temple re dedication - the clock starts ticking. skip 300 years - Ptolomy II of Egypt, ancestor to Ptolomy(alexanders General who inherited Egypt from Alexander's empire) Ptolomy translates all the jewish old testament books from Hebrew to Greek, greek being a more precise language. Both Hebrew texts and the Septuagint(greek) exist today. Still 200 years before Christ makes an appearance. in 33 AD - Jesus enters the gate of Jerusalem (later walled up by the muslims to stop the jewish messiah ? in 670 AD. how dumb are these guys?) Palm Sunday - the crowd declare Jesus king and the messiah. three days later he is executed. proof of God ? How do you orchestrate the whole of history ? from 700 BC ? Who is that clever, what cabal of super geniuses are doing it? All to get you into a pew on a sunday and stare at some old guys head? Why is Jesus provoking such a response anyway - Is he stopping you doing something. Is he the fly in your ointment? Perhaps sin is controlling you - not Jesus and you prefer that master. |
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Oh wtf, it's all a complete load of bollox. There's nothing miraculous and you're all going to die. And everybody will be really, really thankful.
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The religious squabble over meaning and misinterpretation continually....except when they fashion something to make it more palatable.
All this 666 makes me think of how the internet was claimed by some as being the devil (WWW) or that roman numerals were lambasted as the devils work....but ultimately they all come round and fall in line in the end. Like Christopher Hitchens used to say, the only evidence given was to illiterate scribes in a backward land and the resurrection witnessed by a minority who society would never have believed even then. Zorro you never answered whether you deem all the actions and bad things as satans work and everything good and beautiful being directly attributable to God? People can be influenced to see what they want to see. You could give a chemical catalyst to invoke euphoria in a human and change the perception of the same event into radically different outcomes. Ive had chemical highs that had I not known different I could have interpreted as being heaven itself, and the result made everything else look rosy and beautiful. |
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I don't blame Satan for any evil? Samael is a fallen spirit. the spirit that tests man.
He gives us the opportunity, that's all. We have the choice with everything else to do good or evil. Samael orchestrates opportunity for you. He's a smart adversary. He gives you other beliefs and other roads and diversions to keep you away from God. No one comes to the father but by me. To know the father you need to know the son. One path to God. Mortal, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from among the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought out fire from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever (Ezekiel 28:12-19). The prophet is speaking to the power behind the King of Tyr (called Lebanon)- The power behind the thrones. When looking at past wars you see something that to me is obvious. We are friends with Germany and Japan but enemies to Russia? We killed millions of Germans and Japanese 70 years ago. Our allies in that war are now the 'bad guys' all these conflicts are engineered to draw young men into a hate trap. We see glory in War, not in keeping the peace. The USA has over a thousand bases around the world. That's an empire. The UK has the commonwealth and holds lands still from their empire. the french too. the Russians. All of these nations have a power behind their thrones. Imbuing their kingdoms with earthly power. You fight or you are put in jail? Who takes away your choice? Is it Jesus? If they call you up and you don't go you become a traitor to your country. there is a commandment that people misquote a lot - Thou shalt not Kill.. It's actually thou shalt not murder. The difference is subtle. It's about intent. you kill to protect but murder is a destroying act. a soul destroyer. Many soldiers return broken men from war, because a wall in their mind has been destroyed. Seeing men savaged, mutilated by themselves or the enemy is the ultimate curse. Those that live by the sword die by the sword. It releases something in a man that cannot be put back. Man is treated like an animal. To be slaughtered. The soul cannot deal with it and stay the same. Satan has corrupted them and condemns them. He does this with every man. he gives us different games and diversions. Wars, theft, lust, religion, money, etc. These things are not evil but they are perverted into evil. Lust is the perversion of love. Religions are the perversion of Faith in God. Man enters into these realms and uses Satan's inspiration to corrupt everything good. this is the way of the world. a fallen world that was corrupted. But God sent us the perfect lamb sacrifice that takes away the sins of the world. The tree of knowledge of good and evil has damned us. The tree of life (the cross) saves us. It redeems us. you can choose condemnation or Grace. No action by man can save him. Only christ's action gives us a free pardon. Accept the pardon and you are free from condemnation. |
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also - for illiterate primitive people? they have a nice turn of phrase? The bible has lasted two thousand years and there are billions of copies in circulation.
even Harry potter hasn't got that much traction. |
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It's a great story Zorro and may have some truths but it's also a book of hearsay and spoken stories that were passed down before writing. I think you have to take that into consideration when reading it. The New Testament was written and compiled many years after Jesus died. I don't know about you but I can't remember last week
 BTW Zorro, could you quote your C/P sources? I'd like to differentiate what is yours from someone else's. |
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I will send you the holy spirit - the helper ? the holy spirit wrote the texts. In all cases. Old testament and new. Through the prophets. those texts that were judged to be nonspiritual never made it into the book.
The holy spirit is still here and Jesus will not return till it withdraws. While it is here people will be saved. It's not spoken stories if they write them down? The Jewish old testament was translated to Greek by Ptolemy the second from Hebrew. two centuries before Christ. It had been around for over a thousand years in Hebrew. book of JOB is referenced by Ezekiel - thought to the oldest of the chapters.Part of the Tanakh. first books of the OT. Isaiah 700bc Daniel 500 bc Only copies from the first century exist to this day from the new testament, but there might have been other writings lost in time. nobody knows who wrote them because nobody cared for authorship back then. The apostles might be the authors? nobody knows. The holy spirit descended on them and they could speak in tongues. Would writing be that difficult an action to imbue upon the apostles? But it's not important, people focus on trivial nothings? pedantic BS looking for proof. It's about faith? Nobody questions who wrote about the Buddha or any other religions to this extent. Because they know it's the word of God. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. You are here arguing there is no God. If you know this as a fact? Why contest with people who are deluded? Go live your life. Without any restrictions. Get out your bucket list and start ticking them off. Carpe Diem. seize the day. pluck the fruit. Get it all done before you die. |
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Zorro, feel free to PM me back.
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The fool hath said in his heart, "There is no God".
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I don't PM anyone, I'm a good boy I am. (Eliza Doolittle.)
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Let 'e
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m be
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You still haven't answered the question zorro, except each time you just go on with the chapter and verse of stuff you are told.
Im not asking if you hold anything against satan i am asking if you think the actions of others who dont agree with what you believe are influenced by evil? In relation to the things we see around us, are they manifestations of the devil? Are all the atheists etc acting out the devils deeds? Also what is fundamentally daft is to suggest that a person is responsible for loving something or somebody. The act of love isnt controlled by the giver its controlled by the receiver. If you love somebody you dont chose to love them, you love them as a result of the other person. So to that end you cant force yourself to love something until you know it first absolutely exists. Its like willing an erection, you either get turned on by something or you dont, you cant force yourself to be turned on. |
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dustybin..........its taken you all this time to realise zorro never gives your an answer to any question posed........the man has all the makings of a great politician or great criminal
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we choose - free will
the whole of the old testament is that in every situation people choose evil. King Solomon, David, every man falls from the face of the law. Therefore no man can come to God. Except by God's Grace. hence - Jesus. God's answer to sin. You all want to embrace rules and laws. the rule of law. the way of the world. Without it we'll have anarchy? So fill your boots. Fill in the bucket list. Get it all done. experience it all. and avoid God. |
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ma real name is Richard Dawkins...
welcome to eternity... mofossss. hahahahaha |
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So then are we all doing satans work unknowingly yes or no?
You don't love God, you love the idea of God since everything you think you know and love about him/Jesus is what is told you in other people's accounts, so you can't love more than the impression since you've never had any personal interaction....unless you have first hand experience through contact? The whole of your testimony is infact itself false witness and judgmental, the very things you are told not to do. You are the snake eating its own tail. |
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I actually have had first hand knowledge of Jesus. But I'm not sharing that with unclean spirits online.
The idea of Jesus on the cross is deeply painful to myself and other people in the church. He(god) took all our abuse, to redeem us. He's still taking it from ungrateful schwabs. Get back to the bucket list - you have to experience it all before you die. swim with the dolphins, or sharks. eat chilli dogs on everest. pull the puddin infront of queen isabella. get it all done. don't miss out. is it the standard 100 list? if you do it all what then... make a new list? |