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Paris... wtf?
Paris... wtf?
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How nice to see Bono and the 3 Stooges turn up at Le Bataclan. Pity they were not playing there when it kicked off.
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MOBO awards • November 14, 2015 9:12 PM GMT
These people hate us because we're non-Muslim. |
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Poor Bongo. He and all the other well-meaning white "progressives" think that the gunmen would have spared them the bullet last Friday night.
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The only way that progress and civilization can survive is through the ability to separate yourself from other people. In the past this was possible because the world was large. Small areas of progress and peace could be established by the few likeminded people and the mass of humans could live out their lives in madness and superstition and violence.
Now the world is small and there is nowhere safe, we are running out of time and space. |
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http://www.thereligionofpeace.com
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Ibrahima Sonko 15 Nov 15 10:34
Im confused, where did anyone say exterminate all muslims ? Which ones should we exterminate? Just those card-carrying IS members? |
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There is of course an assumption that everyone is human. But some people are more human. It is possible eg that Shakespeare who lived 400 years ago was more human than anyone alive today.
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therhino
Until we acknowledge the fact that we are INVADERS, this is never going to stop. Doesn't have anything to do with our love of booze, sex and good times like some think. It is retaliation. Don't hear about much islamic extremism in Brazil do you? You make some good points and some poor ones in my view rhino. We do first have to look to our interventions in the middle east and compare them to what we have done in recent years in Africa with some equally nasty dictators. We are guilty of both arrogance and hypocrisy. Arrogance to assume we have the right to police the world and hypocrisy in picking and choosing who to dethrone and on what basis and then go on to claim some kind of moral basis for our actions. I'd far rather our governments were honest about their actions. Oil and our desire to hold on to America's coat tails are the prime drivers in my view. Having said that where I believe you err is in attributing false reasoning such as hedonism to why people think this is happening. You also make an interesting statement about Brazil. Interesting but not getting to the heart of the issue. Taking Brazil first their society is very well integrated with it being common for subsequent generations to integrate fully into Brazilian life to the extent that they have no need for one of the prime identifiers of origins in their original language. What is also crucial in looking at this is the fact that Brazil has a tiny percentage of Muslims. There we get to the crux of the issue. Islam is an Old Testamentary type book and it doesn't have the counter balance of a New Testament. It has also yet to undergo anything like the reformation which Christianity underwent centuries ago. As a group Muslims seem to find it hard to coexist with any other religious or even non religious group and have even waged a many centuries old and ongoing feud between sunni and shia which long predates and is on an ongoing basis more discordant than the difficulties which have periodically flared between catholic and protestant. I suggest we ask a simple question with quite profound implications and in that sense it does tie in partly with the hedonism issue. Is Islam compatible with western style liberal democracy? I suggest that it isn't and that this leads not to integration but to ghettoisation and isolation. Either I'm right or wrong. If I'm wrong I'd like someone such as yourself who is being proclaimed as a voice of reason to address the question. If I'm right perhaps we could discuss what we should do about that? In an ideal world I'd love to leave all medieval fairy tales long behind us but I do respect the right of people to believe in whatever they want After all most other religions seem to have found a way to deal with the modern world. It would be nice for its adherents to make the case loudly and try to draw Islam into that modern world rather than in the opposite direction. |
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maybe start with the countries supplying weapons to the rebels : Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Libya
I guess not then |
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what a reply, no answer but a question
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rhino
The Koran being the book. |
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19th and early 20th century nationalism is much maligned these days but it's starting to look a lot better compared to the alternatives!!
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Distressing photo of Bataclan Theatre aftermath online currently
What looks like a generic concert hall, I've visited dozens of times in towns and cities everywhere, is strewn with lifeless bodies, taken from one of the balconies looking down into the stall / pit. The horrifying aspect is the amount of trails and swirls of blood all over the floor, where the injured have been dragged or crawled themselves. (It seems to have been taken post-medics, pre-coroner) It just looks like any concert venue we've all visited. |
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I was a bit wary about posting this, yet I then turn to the Daily Mail website and the picture (blurred out in places)
is all over their front page headline in full frame without warning (!?!) |
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Much of the responsibility for the spread of radical islam began before the Iraq war and stems from Saudi Arabia who actively exported radical Imams as part of their foreign aid projects in the 80's and 90's. I regularly entered the Islamic Bank in Jeddah and in return for funding Sudan and other countries with aid required a mosque and supplied an Imam to preach Islam,rather like our missionary behaviour in 19th century. Since many of these Imams were from areas like Buraidah ,the centre of Wahaabism it was useful to the Saudi royal family asameans of getting them out of harm's way ! The academic eejits who supported this in UK and Europe in the name of freedom of speech do have blood on their hands.
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seeing as rhino hasn't responded I'll throw my question open to his fellow travellers like dustybin, facts et al:
Is Islam compatible with western style liberal democracy? |
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Israel is the origin of all problems. If it wasn't established in 1948 then there would be no radical Muslims.
But it's done now. I'm not happy that Muslims have transferred their hate for Jews onto Westerners but they have. It's not fair at all. What are we gonna do about it? |
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They weren't very keen on the Turks long before that,when are we going to blame the muslims for their own hatred ?
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Agree.
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you are all going round in circles to avoid the obvious
Islamic ideology is at war with the west - it always has been read the book and the hadiths then you have a base to start from they kill more of their own in inter faith wars (splitters and all that) |
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http://www.jewishgen.org/sefardsig/maps2.htm
How Spain was 100's of years ago...nearly all Muslim, then they wiped them out! this time they will win... |
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all debate has been closed down on that bastion of free speech the gruniad!!!
here's something I have banged on about - you may not be able to access it even Sissi has been heard to say that it is time for Islam's enlightenment - which is very interesting but not sure how much longer he will last when daesh hear what he has to say this is another article on similar lines remember though, you are not allowed maintain a critique of the qur'an http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11996879/Islams-civil-war-between-medievalists-and-modernisers.html |
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Well EO since I see you deferred the question to me Ill suggest that as there are plenty of reasonable individuals who practice their faith and dont subscribe to the tenets that people like to pick out then yes.
You could argue all religion is by its very nature insidious and pernicious as all suggest some form of power grab. Deuteronomy says words to the effect of 'trick non believers and divide the spoils' you can interpret many scriptures are being anti-democracy. Ofc directly there are serious problems with parts of Islam namely the suggestion of killing infidels, but its written by man, not god or in the case allah. |
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I return to my earlier point mobo. What do Islamic reformers point to? There is no New Testament in Islam. It is a fire and brimstone document. So to be a Muslim you have to subscribe to a fundamentalist text. Which may explain when you ask "moderate muslims" questions ascertaining their own compatibility with western liberal ideals they often give answers which will shock.
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So are you saying all peaceful muslims are here waiting for isis to succeed?
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9 out of 10 imams in this country are from abroad
they will be giving a very different view of the qur'an to what dusty and the rest think the imam's will have the say ultimately - it has happened everywhere else a good muslim will have to follow his qur'an and the hadiths he will do what the imam says |
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I suggest we ask a simple question with quite profound implications and in that sense it does tie in partly with the hedonism issue. Is Islam compatible with western style liberal democracy? I suggest that it isn't and that this leads not to integration but to ghettoisation and isolation.
Since the 1950s there has been a muslim population in the UK. Until 2001 it was never a problem. Since then we have had from memory three terrorist incidents occur in the UK (I am sure the security services have stopped others). What changed in 2001 was the war on terror. Muslims have been demonised and characterised as the enemy whilst we have for the best part of 15 years bombed muslim countries and in some cases invaded muslim countries. With that type of aggressive action comes pay back. The west's foreign policy in the middle east is the biggest factor in why they hate us and why the attack us rather than other countries. We should get out of the middle east and stay out and leave it to the people in the region to sort it out. As for integration v isolation it isnt that simple. The idea that everyone gets along and integrates is bollocks. The rich don't integrate with the poor. Most people have the same core values - they look after their families and friends, they try to better their lives, they have hobbies in interests - many muslim men enjoy cricket and football in the same way the average atheist/christian male does. The idea they all hate us is rubbish and spouted by people who never meet, work or socialise with muslims. |
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Thanks for the reply dustybin. I'm not a religious person and I'm not an expert on various religions but isn't Deuteronomy an Old Testament text which highlights the problem I'm referring to? Islam needs a Jesus type figure to inspire their own New Testament which could help draw reformers together but who would dare to seek to add to the words of The Koran? As you say these books are written by man but their adherents say they are the word of god. In the case of The Koran supposedly from the final prophet.
On a practical level are you aware of the views of even so called moderate muslims on things which the west embrace like gay and womens rights? I don't really see how you can view Islam as being compatible with western liberal democracy. It isn't. Neither are fundamentalist christians. |
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Just to be clear.
Im an agnostic, I am that way because I believe religion as a whole to be horseh1t. That doesnt mean I 'support' or favour any religion over others, but I recognise people have a right to believe what they want. People have assumed that Im a liberal leftie that would allow them to do anything, that isnt the case, where homegrown elements exist who plot against our freedoms then they should be dragged over coals. Other than putting up fences or walls like israel I cant see how any other way would work |
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Preceding the war on terror was 9/11 mighty and in fact several other atrocities. To suggest that there were never any problems prior to then isn't true. There were growing signs for many years of radical Islamists infiltrating Mosques for years in our country before then spreading a fundamentalist doctrine which was acting as the fuel. 9/11 and the events which followed it may have been the spark but to suggest there wasn't a problem prior to that is wrong. Go back into history be it recent or much further back and there has been both an inter faith and in faith problem with Islam unless it was the dominant religion or sect within the religion.
Of course our middle east policy has made matters worse. |
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It is the good muslim's duty to pursue Jihad in all its forms. Do please understand what this means (it does have many and various quite confusing meanings). From one that is internal to each individual, to pursuing jihad with family or friends - then right over to the physical Jihad.
Do go and learn these lessons from their good book and try to understand what Islam means to them and how it dictates their every moment of life on this earth. Someone said on here recently ,that they are 'not going to read all that stuff to find out !!!' How fkn ignorant can someone be?? |
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where homegrown elements exist who plot against our freedoms then they should be dragged over coals.
Other than putting up fences or walls like israel I cant see how any other way would work The problem being that if the group in question ghettoise themselves with our tacit agreement it becomes difficult to drag them over the coals unless you get lucky. I'd argue our own security services have been both lucky and good at their job. The problem is when the luck runs out. If there are many thousands of people plotting mayhem as there are in France then it isn't possible for the security services to keep people safe. |
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ps
the imams and texts, qur'an, hadiths and local muslim forums are quite clear on the issue of integration kuffur countries. Do go on some of the general uk muslim forums - very educational.Basically it is considered haram - bad practise in some hadiths or forum responses it is said if muslims in a kuffur country cannot increase then it may be better to go to one that has better prospects or even return to a muslim majority country. A somewhat crude explanation of the original approach to non muslims. (see below) And it is true that Muslims should offer the hand of friendship as long as you convert. Unfortunately you only have the one choice.!!! When the Messenger of Allah appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils [of war, booty[37]]; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate the dead bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to accept Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muslims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims against other disbelievers. If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them. — Sahih Muslim, 19:4294 The term infidel, kafir in Islam, is broad. One group is the so-called murtadd, who are variously translated as apostate or renegades. For renegades, Islamic law prescribes death, with the opportunity first of obeying the demand to return to Islam. The other group, the so-called kafirun asliyun, or unbelievers proper, have only to expect death or slavery.[33][38] Some scholars claim Islam considers Jews and Christians as fellow believers. They are called the "People of the Book (Ahl al-kitab)".[39][40] Other Islamic scholars and literature, however, consider Jews and Christians as kafir.[41] Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, for example, claims, "it is well known among the Muslims, and they are unanimously agreed that the Christians are kaafirs, and even that those who do not regard them as kaafirs are also kaafirs."[42][43] Similarly, Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah bin Baz suggests, "The Jews and Christians are both kafirs and mushrikeen. They are kafirs because they deny the truth and reject it. And they are mushrikeen because they worship someone other than Allah."[44][45] Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, and other scholars, consider annual religious holidays celebrated by Christians such as Christmas as a celebration of the belief in the "Son of God" which in Islam is blasphemy and kafir.[46][47][48] |
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what you have to understand is the sway of wahhabism. I.t crudely expresses that if you are not one of us then you are one of them (infidel). Unless there is an understanding of Islam you will be batting in the dark
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What I do love is how people cast aspersions at those who argue against Islam and muslims by accusing them of hate because of ignorance or not knowing muslims.
Having lived with, had friends(you need to understand what friend is in relation to the faith as a kuffur) amongst muslims. Even had a muslim girlfriend(there's a minefield for you) I only understand that which I have touched, joined, been in prayer with etc etc. One had to join in or be ... well .... no longer acceptable. Most have no understanding of the power over their lives which comes from the ideology. Even a muslim raising questions about the qur'an is considered to be beyond the pale. Do learn this brothers and sisters!!! |
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In life you must always have the ability to separate yourself from other people. This is true for the individual as well as a nation.
Once you give this up, or lose it for any reason, then it is almost inevitable that your life will become intolerable and maybe unbearable.This will follow because once you do not have that option there are those who will exploit your weakness. It is vital to have the option of freedom from the overwhelming will of other people. |
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As a matter of interest, Id not trust put my personal trust in a muslim knowing enough of the facts, but then Im not so sure thats any difference to any non muslim tbh
 Keep your own council, keep your nose clean and dont expect a whole lot of others. Thats not to say I chose to dictate how others should live. |
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Preceding the war on terror was 9/11 mighty and in fact several other atrocities. To suggest that there were never any problems prior to then isn't true. There were growing signs for many years of radical Islamists infiltrating Mosques for years in our country before then spreading a fundamentalist doctrine which was acting as the fuel
Preceding the war on terror there were no atrocities in the UK and the issue barely got a mention. There may have been radical preachers but in the main they had little impact. The main country affected by Islamic terrorism prior to 9/11 were the USA at the hand of Bin Laden whose main aim at the time was to get the USA out of the middle east. The reason we are now a target is not because of our way of life but because of our foreign policy. Muslims can live side by side with other faiths - you only need to look at the vast majority of muslims in this country to see that or further afield in a country like Malaysia. Turkey and Dubai are popular tourist destinations yet muslim countries. In Syria pre the war different religious groups lived safely side by side for hundreds of years. Even under dictators like Assad and Saddam christians were allowed to follow a different faith and go along with their every day lives. |
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In 2002 there were 199 terror attacks around the world killing 725 people
In 2014 there were 13500 terror attacks around the world killing 32,727 people Source US State Department. Maybe it is a time for a different foreign policy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoiLW9m3i7I |
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I fully agree with part of your prescription mighty. We should be leaving the middle east to their own devices. Yes it's true that there weren't any terrorist atrocities in our country pre 9/11. As I alluded to it was reported as long ago as the 90's that we were in a non aggression pact on our shores. In effect we allowed the preachers of hate to spread their message unmolested as long as they left us alone. However, The Satanic Verses furore and the terrorism which flowed from that illustrated the problem.
Islam does have a history of being able to live side by side peacefully with other religions in its midst. That flowed from it being the main religion though. It doesn't have a good record of co existing with other religions where it a significant minority group. |