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Champion Chase 2013

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Replies: 227
By:
CVByrne
When: 12 May 12 09:22
Yeah it's fence 3 where it it becomes game over, Dan Breen and Somersby jump badly left and lose 5 lengths on Sanctuaire and all the other horses jump slowly as they have the other two horses in their path now on the other side of then fence.

The point of this is he certainly won't be getting any kind of soft lead against Sizing Europe and Finians Rainbow who are always up there. While Sprinter Sacre will love the fact he gets a toe round as it may help him settle and if that happens he'll win easily.
By:
buddeliea
When: 12 May 12 14:53
He MAY win easily,that depends on how good he is.At the moment i see no evidence that says hes better than Sanctuaire,let alone the horses that fought out the finish of the QM.
For one thing we still aint see what SS will find in a battle,thats if he ever does have a battle!!
Yes,hes looked mighty impressive,but still a fair bit to prove against the best around.
By:
Masterminded
When: 12 May 12 17:31
Sprinter will canter past Sanctuaire. People need to realise horses are trained to their absolute best to run at Cheltenham. By the time Sandown comes around the horses are knackered. While I would never take anything away from Sanctuaire he was trained for the race & ridden aggressively to take tired horses  out of their comfort zone on testing ground. He jumped superbly and it was a great Sandown performance. BUT... If that field had lined up in the Arkle in that condition they would have been beat by half the track. I can't spot another horse that jumped or traveled throughout. Sanctuaire is a lovely horse but Sprinter could possibly be the best 2 mile chaser we have seen. I'm not saying go back him at 5/4 or what is or what isn't value but I disagree with some of the ratings & opinions claiming Sanct is as good as Sprinter etc. when you see what Dan Breen has gone on to do. It's dodgy form at best.
By:
tomdeane
When: 12 May 12 22:22
Bud,

Is there a danger that you are trying too hard not to usher in Sprinter as the very good horse he is? I say this because I know you fought Al Ferof's corner all winter and seemed determined not to rate Sprinter as highly as he deserved. I did for much of the season before I had my 'Eureka' moment after his Newbury romp.

Can't believe you see no evidence to him being better than Sanctuaire. I know you are a big Al Ferof fan, so wonder how you would price up a race featuring the three of them?
By:
buddeliea
When: 13 May 12 08:37
I dont think so Tom,i have never said SS is not a very good horse,he clearly is.
The way i look at horses when comparing them to others is when they meet.Until they do its all about opinions as to what may happen.
I still think Al Ferof would give SS a race over 2m at Chelt,the Arkle for me proved nothing against that with what happened halfway.My basis all last season for arguing the case for AF was the fact that i think hes a real cheltenham horse and i werent sure SS was,and unfortunately by taking off too soon we had ho conclusive evidence as to whether i was correct to think that,although obviously i got it wrong as re SS,although i would still be interested in his reaction should a horse challenge him up that hill,which i still maintain AF would have bar the error.
With Sanctuaire,until he meets SS for me the jury's out.
I do take the point about Sandown and the end of the season,and i agree,but that should not detract from the performance of Sanct,he could not have performed more impressively.Yes you can look at the horses in behind but one could do the same with SS,who imo has not beaten much.
Look,i aint saying who would win out of these 3 if they met,i leave that to others,and i aint pricing it up,they are all novices that will improve,i have no idea how much,nor does anyone else.
All i am saying is that i reserve judgement till i have proper evidence,for me i am not satisfied that one is better than the other from what ive seen.
By:
tomdeane
When: 13 May 12 09:26
Fair enough. I do agree with the point in general that you can never know how horses will shape up until they meet, I just think it's extremely unlikely that Al Ferof or Sanctuaire will bustle him up.

The niggling doubt that had always prevented me from jumping on the bandwagon was whether he would come up the hill as strongly as he did. I know some people point to the fact that he has never been in a battle and thus we don't know how much he would find. The problem with that line of thinking is that we need a horse fast enough and good enough to get him in one (and if Finian's and Sizing go elsewhere, there is no evidence as yet that there is one). Menorah is no world-beater but won a Supreme Novice and ran OK in a Champion Hurdle. He has a smashing Cheltenham record but was beaten at halfway in the Arkle despite having jumped fine to that point - a headache that hit many of this big black beast's wounded foes last season.

Perhaps more importantly is the likelihood that Sprinter will find plenty if needed. OK, he hasn't had to fight, but he came off the bridle for a few strides after the last in the Arkle and blitzed further away from Cue Card. He finished as strong as anything did all week, so I no longer worry that there are any weaknesses in him. The only way I see him getting beaten over two miles, assuming he stays injury free of course, is if something better comes on the scene. The likelihood that Sanctuaire is that horse, one who may well have to be better than the likes of Moscow Flyer, to me seems very remote indeed.
By:
buddeliea
When: 13 May 12 09:53
Thats the thing though Tom,for all we know there may be better than him now.

Look at all the races the top 2m horses around now have ran in.Then tell me with no doubt in your mind,that SS has the best form.You cant cos he dont.Its all about visual impression,has to be,and imo that is no better than the visual impression i got at Sandown the other week.
One horse is a lot bigger price than the other for the QM,and i think it was the value aspect that got Sanct being compared to SS on this thread.

Now the point about SS in a battle is imo very valid,cos as ive said i do believe AF would have got him into one in the Arkle,so although as you say Tom,their is no evidence we have a horse that can do that,their is definitely evidence that we could have,and its the unknown that can get us.
I am sure as one can be that both FR and SE would get SS working hard,and i also feel that both AF and Sanct are capable of that.
Of course i could be way out and SS will prove to be Pegasus,i do recognise that,but at this stage i aint as confident as others seem to be on that one.
By:
wellchief
When: 13 May 12 11:43
Assuming the big four make the race (I know the doubts about Finians, but assuming he lines up in the QMCC) I think the markets have got it pretty much spot on; but Tataniano should be up there assuming he is back next year.

Sprinter, without doubt, should be favourite, and Sanctuaire should be fourth favourite behind Finians and Sizing Europe.  Out of the four, Sanctuaire is the only one in my opinion that still has something to prove.

The others have all shown they can raise their game around Cheltenham in a Grade 1 Chase, and they have shown that their big wins are no "one race wonder"; they have done it time and time again.

Sanctuaire has to prove that his chase form will not just tail off like it did over hurdles.  There were quotes for Champion Hurdles after his Fred Winter win and then couldn't beat the 130 rated Orsippus at Aintree.  OK, Aintree form can be dodgy to say the least but then put in a string of poor performances, either side of his Scottish Champion Hurdle win.

For me, there is always a nagging doubt about the horse that he will spit his dummy out and run a shocker.  Yes, he looked epic when he won at Sandown, but can he repeat that?  I wouldn't be backing him at 12/1 for the QMCC, when there are an awful lot of questions to be answered.

People can say what they want about Sprinter, but he has never been pulled up, he's never just faded after the last and has never tailed off to finish last, miles behind the other runners; but Sanctuaire has.

In terms of Sanctuaire's win, I don't rate the form at all to be honest.  If you look at the runners he beat, all of them were either stuffed at Cheltenham or didn't run there because they weren't good enough. 

Because Sprinter has mainly beaten novices, the offical ratings of the ones he has beaten might not be as high as the ones Sanctuaire has beaten, but that's because novice ratings can fluctuate massively from run to run.

The Celebration Chase often throws up a few strange results.  Last year Chaninbar ran second, where his form figures were P74RRR.  The year before that I'm So Lucky (rated 146) beat Twist Magic rated 173 on his home turf.  Theey don't have any direct effect on Sanctuaire, but just to say a note of caution should be used when using the race as bare form, whereas everyone was trained to the minute in the Arkle, where usually the best horse in the race normally wins.
By:
Masterminded
When: 13 May 12 11:50
Trying to get Sprinter beat will leave you with empty pockets. There is no doubt he is the best chaser in training right now and he's open to more improvement. My advice would be fair enough if you can find an e/w alternative but it is hugely unlikely that there will be a better 2 mile chaser for years. Who knows he could go on to become the greatest.
By:
wellchief
When: 13 May 12 11:53
^^^^^^

Should also just say that in no way am I writing Sanctuaire off for the QMCC.  Many horses are much better over fences than hurdles, so maybe using his hurdles form is a bit harsh.

Just trying to point out that he has been far from consistent, and may have had one or two temperamental issues in the past.

I think he has the raw ability to win, and I can see why some would back him because of the Sandown performance.  It could be that we are choosing to ignore what we have seen with our own eyes, and are talking ourselves out of backing the horse.

If he repeats that performance in the Tingle Creek, a few on here, including me, will have egg on their face.

It's just at the moment, I wouldn't go near him with my money until I've seen him run to the same level again, because as good as that performance was, he needs to be able to step it up again.
By:
Masterminded
When: 13 May 12 11:58
WC u are spot on
By:
Steeplechasing
When: 13 May 12 13:06
Given his easy victory over 2m 4f at Aintree and the fact that SS is in the yard, I strongly suspect FR will end up in the Ryanair (Prior to the QM NJH was already thinking of moving him up in trip). Sizing will be 11, Big Zeb 12, Somersby is thoroughly exposed: Cue Card and Al Ferof are almost certainly not good enough on present form - we must wait and see if one or both find considerable improvement.
By:
sageform
When: 14 May 12 10:46
I agree that SS deseves to be favourite but there are still so many unknowns.
Will he be the same horse next year?
How good might Al Ferof be if he gets back to his best (very few of Nicholls horses showed their form after January)?
What will the going be and which horses will benefit?

etc. etc.
By:
R Carver
When: 16 May 12 18:50
Budd - instinct to me always means more than weights and measures.
By:
R Carver
When: 16 May 12 18:50
Budd - instinct to me always means more than weights and measures.
By:
R Carver
When: 16 May 12 18:50
Budd - instinct to me always means more than weights and measures.
By:
R Carver
When: 16 May 12 18:50
Budd - instinct to me always means more than weights and measures.
By:
R Carver
When: 16 May 12 18:50
Budd - instinct to me always means more than weights and measures.
By:
R Carver
When: 16 May 12 18:50
What is your feeling about AF vs SS based on?


Sorry, PC problems persist so I will leave it there..
By:
bluebirdfan
When: 17 May 12 13:15
If Sprinter Sacre turns up 100% after a full campaign goes to plan he will win the Champion Chase, its that simple
By:
FOYLESWAR
When: 23 May 12 10:19
sprinter sacre has been given an official  rating of 169 ,finians rainbow 173,sizing europe 172, sanctuaire 166. the 2m division  looks one of the strongest and most exciting for years .plenty to look forward to !
By:
strontium
When: 23 May 12 11:36
Who knows? If the novices progress at a normal rate they should both be running 180-185 by the Festival next season making it more like a 2 horse race. On the other hand they may not progress much more (unlikley imo, especially for Sprinter). Sizing is presumably on the decline and there's a chance Finian's will step up in trip.
By:
Howdi
When: 15 Jun 12 23:31
Sprinter could win it with his c0ck hanging out imo.
By:
strontium
When: 21 Jun 12 15:57
Speaking of the Chamnpion Chase, please can someone give me a link to the full video of the 2008 race? I can't find it in any of the usual places. TIA.
By:
neill d
When: 22 Jun 12 21:24
Kauto's 09' Gold Cup can also be tough to find.
By:
strontium
When: 22 Jun 12 22:22
I believe Festival races from 09 are available on the Cheltenham Racecourse website (under Cheltenham TV) - before that it's very limited highlights.
By:
asasas4
When: 23 Jun 12 20:52
sportinglife.com/racing      free racing uk replays just search the date
By:
strontium
When: 23 Jun 12 21:28
Thanks for that, but they only go back to Jan 2009 (same as RUK site I think).
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