A few points have been discussed here. What is important to remember is the current ratings for both horses are just intermediate ratings, awarded for their 2 runs outside novice company in the Game Spirit and Celebration Chase. To gain a rating as a novice you must beat the senior horses as that is when ratings get to the high levels.

We know that these ratings should or will improve next season for Sprinter Sacre but we don't know if they will for Sanctuare, it remains to be seen as he was ridden out at Sandown. The handicapper has given him a big rating based on an end of season race where horses are known to run below par.

Take Follow The Plan, he beat Burton Port 3l and then at Punchestown beat Rubi Light 10l, further than Synchronised did in the Lexus. Do we really believe Follow The Plan would have won the Gold Cup? No of course not.

The Key times horses run at their best are in the big December festivals and at Cheltenham. Your Tingle Creeks and King Georges are the early season markers. But what's very important to remember is that Nicholls wanted to run Sanctuaire at Aintree but only if Sprinter didn't run.

My personal belief is that Sanctuaire was gifted an easy lead when a fresh horse carrying 11-2 and he bolted around Sandown and was never caught. This is catching the field on the hop, when people didn't rate you as good as you turned out to be. He won't be a surprise to anyone again. He'll be kept closer order of and that's when we'll really see what he's made of.

But we normally know when a Horse is going to turn out a great, they never sneak up on us. I've only nailed my colours to the mast twice on here, both times I turned out to be right in Kauto Star and Hurricane Fly. I can say, very confidently again, that Sprinter Sacre has nothing to fear from Sanctuaire, if he had he'd have faced him this season.

What I predict is Sanctuaire to be a good horse next term and win some prizes but be firmly put in his place when he faces the real deal in Sprinter Sacre and probably Sizing and Finians too.

maybe,but who SHOULD be fav??

I took 66/1 on Sanctuaire for the Champion Chase and its a decent bet to be sat on at this moment in time but a lot can happen in a year and I still rate Sprinter Sacre as the best horse I've seen live

I don't concern myself with ratings out of handicaps either. I certainly don't care in the slightest about RPRs they serve no purpose at all. At least handicap marks are what a horse will run off if he was in a handicap.

Sprinter had won races in sensational fashion, 2 grade ones and the most important indicator for the following seasons Champion Chase. The Arkle.

Sanctuaire beat a bunch of low quality horses at the end of the season, when gifted a 15l lead in a race known for strange results.

It's very easy for me to rate one superior to the other. As I rate Sprinter vastly superior to Sanctuaire. I'd love some tasty ew odds on Sanctaire like people have, but I don't.

As for price, I've no interest in taking on Sprinter with anything that isn't going to give me a decent return by simply placing. So AP 10/1 on sanctuaire is garbage price imo, given I think he'll be beaten by Sprinter, Finians and Sizing Eruope should he race all 3 in Champion chase.

As for Tingle Creek, I'd be interested in Sanctuaire w/o sprinter if the price was decent enough based on opposition.

"A bunch of low quality horses" - Somersby?  Beat the Champion Chaser in a grade 1 this year!  Best horse SS has beaten is Cue Card.  How much better than Somersby do you think Cue Card is then?

That might be so Thieves - it probably sticks in my mind because I was there and it was so visually impressive. I'd argue it was the 2nd highest quality race SS has run in though.

We all know somersby is a filthy dog, he only runs 1 good race each season, that's at Ascot. He was hammered at Cheltenham the last 2 years and in his runs after Cheltenham the last 2 years.

You simply cannot use Somersby to rate any horse. EVER.

As you said, Somersby runs poorly at Cheltenham.  Round right handed park courses he has an excellent record, won his only prior start at Sandown very well as well as several good runs at Ascot.   You cannot dismiss him as rubbish with any credibility.

Sanc won his Fred Winter off 127, fwiw, so I am not surprised he acted round there that day.

Finians improved massively from Ascot to Cheltenham, I cannot believe anyone cannot see that, so the literal Somersby angle would not work for me.

Sanctuaire has surprised me, I thought the Taunton run was nothing to get excited about given his profile and dismissed his last run as an egg and spoon race. This was masively impressive though I still have a nagging doubt.

I stand by all my compliments of Sanc, but I am not taking too literal a view of the weights and measures from Saturday. He was trained to the minute, given a perfect ride, on ground he relished, at a track he seems to enjoy, against horses given too much to do, some of whom (a) hated the ground, (b) were not given a great ride, (c) possibly do not act at the track, (d) ran as an afterthought, (e) had had long seasons, all on a notorious front runner track - i cannot believe BJG will give so much rope.

Will anyone lay me 7/4 - 13/8 SS on December 8th? I might be horribly wrong but I would fancy SS. I will accept defeat with good grace though if mistaken.

I see Timeform have sprinter Sacre at 175p in their end of season ratings, making him the third highest rated chaser after Kauto and Long Run (and a pound above the Champion Chaser).

I'm just having a bit of banter, 100 posts on this thread already shows a race that was lacking interest suddenly became a lot more interesting.

It'd be great if Finians wasn't at the same stable as Sprinter Sacre. We'd have a 4 way battle.

Bring on next season

Bit of info on Sizing Europe, hints he will be campaigned over further next season?

from Nick Mordin's website...

LONGER TRIPS LOOK A SMART PLAN FOR SIZING EUROPE

When SIZING EUROPE (43) won the Arkle as a novice the early gallop was so fast the field tired dramatically in the closing stages. That sort of pace seems to suit the horse over two miles as he's won all three times he's encountered a lopsidedly fast early gallop since - those three wins being those he's scored this season.

Sizing Europe's latest win came in the Champion Chase at Punchestown where China Rock made the running at a pace too strong for the heavy ground.

In the closing stages everything was stopping and Sizing Europe wandered around in the slow motion finish to hold off the determined challenge of Realt Dubh.

Wins like this clearly demonstrate that Sizing Europe has a good deal more stamina than most top class two milers. Indeed he's finished second in the last two renewals of the JNWine.com Champion Chase over three miles at Down Royal.

I think Henry de Bromhead was right to suggest after the race that next season longer distances might be the right option for Sizing Europe. It is not uncommon for champion two mile chasers to want longer trips when they get older. Desert Orchid and Kauto Star are great examples of this.

The easy three miles of the King George looks a great option for Sizing Europe. But I would add that the top two and a half mile chasers, barring soft ground specialists Rubi Light and Joncol, have been a remarkably weak group this season according to my speed ratings. So there is also a good deal to be said for focusing Sizing Europe's next campaign around the four big two and a half mile chases - the John Durkan Memorial, the Ascot Chase, the Ryanair and the Melling Chase.

In this regard it is interesting to note that three of those big two and a half mile chase are run in Britain.

Sizing Europe might well have won all four times he's run over fences in Britain but for having to swerve so violently to avoid the omitted last fence at this year's Cheltenham Festival. All those UK runs were in Grade 1's. The Punchestown Champion Chase was Sizing Europe's first Grade 1 chase win in five tries over Irish fences. So it does seem the, despite his bomb proof jumping (he's never fallen seventeen chases) he may be slightly better suited to the easier fences in Britain.

They had to go 2m when he didn't stay 3m as he'd won either the Arkle or Champion chase the previous season over 2m. Now he's lost his 2m crown and is 11yo plus Sprinter Sacre on the scene, he'll try 3m again in King George imo then if he stays that have a crack at the Gold Cup I'm sure. Why not he owes them nothing now and the Potts are desperate for a Gold Cup horse.

The John Durkan will be over tough irish fences and prob on soft ground and up against Sir Des Champs, Flemenstar and likely Rubi Light. So it'd not be the race to go for. Tingle Creek or King George will be his December target.

Can we stop talking about Rubi light as if he's a good horse over 3m?!

The horse wants 2m4f and a bog.

And even then I think he's a very beatable one.

I can't see how Sizing stays the CGC trip. I alos think he'll struggle at Kempton over 3 m - it's not an easy 3 m becuase it's generally run at an end to end gallop. He look at the end of his tehter after about 2 m 6 at Down Royal last time.

He should run in the Tingle Creek,see how he does against the new kids,and then plan accordingly.
Target QM or Ryanair depending,but please connections forget about the KG and mores the case the GC.
Be realistic,and give the horse the best possible chance of success,and if you want a Gold Cup horse,go and find one capable of staying 3m plus.

You don't think he's a National horse Budd?

Shockster

I know its the owner mate,thats why i suggest if he wants a winner of the race,then go and buy one thats capable!!
I guess its possible he could stay at Kempton on good ground,but to stay well enough to beat the likely opposition?? Not on what ive seen of him over 3m.

Why don't you think Grand Crus will be aimed at the Queen Mother?
Another One Man in the making - always cruising in his races but in the Grade 1's, doesn't have the final kick/ stamina.
His mid race burst in the Feltham last year was amazing - took lengths out of decent horses in a matter of strides.
Logic might suggest that Ryanair is the natural route but surely worth a punt at a true championship race.
Only caveat, and don't mean to be rude, but think he needs another jockey on top to realise his true potential. Seeing Scu getting 'outmanned' by Geraghty and Russell in the RSA wasn't pleasant viewing.

My immediate reaction in the RSA was that GC did not stay but I think Pipey reckons he was not right.

Buddeleia, I do not think Sizing is a stayer and would start him in the Tingle Creek, though I suspect he may get done by the new brigade. Potts is desperate for his Gold Cup horse (fair enough) and I wonder if that nice bumper winner last week could be it (or even the two he bought at Goffs).

Where do people think Finians will start? I imagine not at Aintree (too early for NJH IMO) or in the Tingle Creek (they must know from home work which is the best (and I think I know)). The Amlin Chase before a crack at the King George?

How about Sprinter? Straight to Sandown? I cannot imagine he would take in the old Connaught at Cheltenham first. Anything else?

I assume Sanctuaire will head straight to Sandwon.