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That may be the case, but do you agree that to state on a plaque that the machine is random when games on it are clearly not is false advertising
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currystar--time to get your life back---never step into a casino or betting office again.
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currystar -
the payout percentage is determined by the payout odds. that is separate from the random number generation. all the results can still be random, even though the payout of 94% is 'fixed'. e.g. if you toss a coin and pay 9 to 10 on winning calls - the result of the toss is totally random. The payout odds of 9 to 10 are irrelevant. |
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Im must be thick, payout odds of 94% yet entirely random results, on a fruit machine??? So you could get a jackpot spin every spin yet the payout odds are 94%. If a machine pays to 94% it means that the machine is controlling payout, therefore it is not random. Anyone who has played a fruit machine knows the score, if the machine has taken enough money it will pay out. If it has paid out tons it will go on the take.
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It still amazes me that a thread like this has so much life (well, the roulette element, the fruit machine part is interesting). The fact that many sensible posters spell it out time and time again makes what I have to say a little redundant, but it still needs to be said. 1 on any single number will return you 36 if your number comes up. There are 37 numbers on the board. It is as simple, and ingenious as that. No fixing is required - you cannot win long-term on roulette.
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MIAMI.
If you are correct, how would you explain the very high frequency of 'freak runs of numbers' coming out? Freak long losing runs and the same number coming out 4 times on the spin on more than 3 occasions, all when iv'e had no money on it and this has happened on about 3 occasions usually when iv'e covered a large percentage of the board? Iv'e never seen the same number appear 3 times in a row never mind 4 in 20 years of casino betting? I'd just like a straight answer on why these machines don't always spin, the instant you press start, more often than not a message appears at the bottom of the screen saying 'please wait for next draw' before spinning a losing number in. Why do we have to wait for the next draw when at least 2 numbers are sent to each machines every second? More questions than answers i'm afraid and its due to the lack of transparency and clarity on how each game operates that causes a stir among punters. |
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I can't believe you haven't seen a treble after 20 years, it's only a 1368/1 chance.
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I don't believe the payout on these machines are fixed, how could they be?
The payout % has to be an average payout. Now, just because the advantage in single zero roulette is 2.7%, this does not mean the machine will pay out an average of 97.3% Why can't anyone understand this? gettheloton, "Freak long losing runs and the same number coming out 4 times on the spin on more than 3 occasions," Each single number combination has the same chance of appearing as the next. Four 10's in a row is just as likely as four of any series of numbers. |
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Funky G
I take your point mate, but you must admit the same number coming out 4 times in a row is highly unlikely. While watching a mug punter a few months back he had the full board covered ecxept number 1, number 1 came out 3 times off the trot and he was playing at 100 per spin. He booted the machine, setting the alarms off and thus being barred from the shop. Like i said in earlier post, he kept pressing the 'start' button, but the wheel wouldn't spin when he was pressing it. It just kept saying 'please wait for next draw'. Then after a pause of about 8 or 9 seconds it just spun number 1 in. This happened 3 times, now if you were playing the machine at this point what would you think? |
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I would think--How can this guy on my shoulder who has been casino gambling for 20 years
describe ME as a mug punter. |
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Quite funny, i don't do the casino to large stakes its just a social thing now, usually after a night out.
I still haven't seen or been told of a number repeating 4 times. |
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Only joking---best of luck in the future.
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gettheloton,
I admit, I would be pretty damn peeved if that happened, and I can fully see why some people would think it's as if the machine knows what's being bet on. I do quite a lot of testing using RNG, namely from random.org or by playing for fun on here. Even when there are no real bets being placed I do quite frequently see same number repeats either adjacent to, or very close to one another. Your brain is much more likely to see this as a pattern than another series of unconnected numbers. |
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I have now had my response from Badcrookes regarding my question re the fruit machine element:- see below
[i]The games/winnings are random but the payout will average 94% over a specific cycle which is to say that over your period of play you may well win more than 94% of your stake or less. If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us again and we will be more than happy to help you This seems to be a bit of an insult to my intelligence and I will be going back to them for further explaination. I think their answer proves that even their staff aren't told how they work |
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Currystar,
How is it an insult to your intelligence? They've replied with exactly what I've already posted and explained how the payout % works |
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Go on then how does it pay to 94% when it is entirely random
Are all the features random such as gambling a win?? Just saying it is random and it pays to 94% explains nothing |
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Do you understand what the edge in roulette actually means?
In an ideal scenario you would lose 2.70 for every 100 bet as the edge is 2.7% based on the odds given. Now, if you understand this, are you asking why the payout average isn't 97.3%? Do you think a real land based casino pays out an average of 97.3% on it's roulette tables? Just like the machines, this would only happen if every single person that played, played perfect strategy which is never going to happen because people make stupid bets, use progressions that their bank rolls and table limits can't handle, or even bet in such a way that the house edge actually increases ( doesn't sound possible, but trust me it is ) If this doesn't clarify things for you, I suggest you read up at least a little on probability and gambling mathematics. It astonishes me how people will chuck 's into gambling which they are clearly not just doing for entertainment value, IE they are doing it to make money, yet they don't have the first clue about expectation |
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Please explain how a player's bet can increase the house edge in roulette.
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Think about it algle, you're intelligent enough. I haven't got time to explain right now, I gotta go to work.
Look into the % of playing two EC's together for example. |
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Funky, please read all my posts, Im not talking about the roulette element, Im talking about the fruit machine element!!!!!!!
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*holds hands in the air*
I give up |
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Below is the latest respone from Badcrooks to the points I raised.
Thank you for your reply. I can confirm that we have passed these details on to the relevant department who are liasing with Barcrest, the game manufacturer for further information. We shall be in contact when we have receieved further information. If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us again and we will be more than happy to help you. Now im sure that Barcrest have made non random fruit machines for years |
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FunkyG -
the house advantage on ANY combination of bets in roulette remains the same, i.e. the ubiquitous 2.7%. When you do have time to explain, I'm all ears. |
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algle,
I can't be bothered to go into depth but take this simple example. Your bet is on 35 numbers to win 1 unit, for one spin. You have a 94.6% chance of winning 1 unit and a 5.4% chance of losing 35 units. This is on a single zero wheel, so you have effectively doubled the chances of the house winning as you are leaving 2 numbers uncovered. |
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Lets get back to the original question folks. Are these machines fixed?
I certainly believe so. |
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FunkyG
You are confusing the chances of winning with the house advantage. The house advantage is 2.7% of the amount wagered, regardless of how it is wagered on the roulette layout. The player with one chip on 13 is subject to a 2.7% house advantage. His chances of winning are 1/37 = 2.7%. The player with one chip on RED is also subject to a 2.7% house advantage. However his chances of winning are 18/37 = 48.6%. The house advantage is determined by the payout odds relative to the true odds, and is the same for all players and all bets. |
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algle,
Ok maybe that was a poor example. I was just trying to illustrate how over the short term what the chances are of losing and how over the long term it is likely the house will win more than the edge should dictate. Going back to my two EC's example. Say you are betting on a colour and odd or even. There are four possible combinations R/O B/O R/E B/E A bet on Red for example has a 48.65% chance to win, but a bet on Red with Odd has a 23.67% chance to win ( 48.65% X 48.65% ) 23.67% X 4 is 94.68% which leaves you with the house edge, which has increased to 5.32% |
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What about zero?? so there are 5 possibilities.
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We all know the percentages and house edge etc etc......
The thread was querying how genuine the roulette machines in the bookies are, these machines don't play like a normal roulette wheel and all too often we see 'freak' runs of numbers when players don't have them covered..... Regardless of percentages or house edge these machines are rigged IMO and the fact that we can't get a straight answer from any of the bookies that operate them just adds more fuel to the debate. |
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No, there are only 4 combinations, but 2 possibilities to lose, one is if the zero hits and the other is if the opposite combination of EC wins.
It's precisely the zero that increases the edge, as in those situations where you are betting on red/odd and red/even comes out you break even, which gives the zero a free shot at you. |
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Lets say for example i had 1 on every number 1-36 and left zero free, i would place money on zero coming out at least twice every 12 spins on these machines......
It doesn't matter what number you cover, the machine will always find one thats empty and for this reason its NOT random. The machine knows what you're bet is before you press start and the result is generated accordingly! |
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My understanding of these - they payout more during busy periods as they are taking more, this is a time when you are more likly to win.
Yes they are rigged but based on the money taken. |
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It always cracks me up when people say roulette is bad value, just because you are getting 35/1 about a genuine 36/1 shot. How many times do people take say 3/1 about a horse which in reality is a 10/1 shot. On the derby yesterday I backed kandahar run , taking 20/1 in the morning. It went off at 11/1, so perhaps I had value. In the event kandahar run was really a 10,000/1 shot as it didnt stay.
My main gambling is at a casino on a saturday night playing roulette. I take 500, sometimes I lose it all and sometimes I win and sometimes I win a lot. I love the fact that I know the odds and I am happy to take 35/1 about a 36/1 shot rather than 20/1 about a 10,000/1 shot. In terms of the machines I have never played them but I have watched 1000s of spins. On a saturday as mentioned I occasionally win a lot. I have watched people on these machines who play roulette in a similar way to me, and I have never ever seen anyone collect over 1500. At a casino I have seen people including me have a bit if luck and win over 5000 on numerous occasions, backing around 50-100 a spin. I have read numerous threads regarding the randomness of these machines on various sites and there seems to be two types of person who responds. Those who lose lots and say its fixed and those who probably dont play the machines but say their not fixed and that the people who lose dont understsand that everyone loses at roulette and hence the bookies would not have to ** the punter. I have no doubt that over a lifetime a regular roulette player will lose overall. However such is the level of luck involved in roulette and the fact that you get 35/1 about a 36/1 shot, if your luck is in you can win lots of money quickly in the same way you can lose money quickly if your luck is out. Two years ago I had a 3 month period where I couldn't lose and won tons. I have yet to see a person respond to a thread stating that they did not think the machines were fixed as they had won a lot of money over say the previous three months. I dont know if they are properly random. I just know that I wont play them |
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The stake limits in the casinos are higher.
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FunkyG
Your method of calculating the house edge is incorrect sorry. It is not derived by multiplying the winning chances of individual bets. It is calculated purely on the ratio of actual payout odds to true payout odds. In single-zero roulette, this ratio is ALWAYS -2.7%. |
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algle,
So you don't believe how you bet affects the edge in roulette. Fine, you are entitled to your opinion. Please break down my calculations on the two EC example and show me where I went wrong if you would be so kind. Please, also can you tell me what the house edge would be if you bet 36 numbers every spin. 2.7%? Yes, it would be ridiculous to suggest anyone would bet 36 numbers as it would result in a push every spin until the zero got you, in which case the house has 100% edge over you as you can only lose 100% of your money if you play the same way ad infinitum Now, you might argue that it's still 2.7% as you would only lose 2.7 times in every hundred spins on average but the principle is the same as my EC's example This 2.7% that mathboys quote endlessly is not real world terms based on how people bet. |
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algle
Whopps, no in isnt If you are playing european roullete in a casino and 1/2 back on zero on even moeny shots, it is 1.35 |
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Get the loan, tell me where you live and I will lay you for as much as you can pull up in your local ladddddies
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I am a betting shop manager. I don't enjoy opening my shop at 9am for the specific reason of taking money off of people addictted to FOBTs. I don't enjoy being open until 930pm for the simple reason of taking money off of people addictted to FOBTs. I also don't enjoy opening Christmas Eve, Good Friday and soon Bank Hol evenings. I don't enjoy having to deal with abuse off people who are**on self destruction. I enjoy my job, I love sports and have fun at work. Getting rid of these machines would make my life a great deal easier.
People who play them to excess should please seek help from GA or Gamcare. They are totally random but you cannot win in the longterm if we only pay you 35/1 on a 36/1 shot. I have had people think i press a button behind the counter to make them win or lose. It's funny but rather sad. If it's not fun, get help. There are people that can help you get your life back on track |
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FunkyG -
As i have said before, the chances of winning the bet do not determine the house edge. The house edge can be defined as: (what you actually get) / (what you should get) - 1 for any winning bet. So in roulette, let's take 2 examples: 1. single number straight up [1 unit] - chances of winning are 1/37. only 1 number will win this bet. 36 numbers will lose this bet. the bet actually pays 35 to 1 for a win. the bet should pay 36 to 1 in a fair game. using the calculation above: (36) / (37) - 1 = -0.027 = -2.7% 2. bet on red [18 units], chances of winning are 18/37. 18 numbers will win this bet. 19 numbers will lose this bet. the bet actually pays 18 to 18 for a win (i.e. 1 to 1) the bet should pay 18.5 to 18 for a win. using the calculation above: (36) / (37) -1 = -0.027 = -2.7% you get 18 *****for winning, plus your original 18 *****back = 36. you should have got 19 ***** plus your original 18 *****= 37. in other words, you are being paid even money, but there are actually more ways to lose (19) than to win (18). |