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The Trainer Myth?
The Trainer Myth?
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I don't think there is any point discussing this any further with Silver. He fails to answer any questions put to him. He is either on d wind up or is thick. I accept there is drugs in Irish racing but there is an art to training them. Over time the cream rises to the top. Anybody can get a good horse for a year or two
But they usually disappear. WPM was around a long time before Ricci and was very successful at training with moderate horses to boot. |
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hes not for turning lads
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Any answer for me silver?
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Tolmi how come its the same old 2 trainers all the time?
Shark has had a couple of decent seasons as has Rothwell and both have some big race winners, maybe its quality of horse?. How come nobody mentions Mouse Morris who has had some incredibly lean years by his standards, quality of horse? |
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Morris always has his horses right for Cheltenham. A good target trainer.
Rothwell is just plain useless. All you have to do is look at the price of his winners to know he hasn't a clue whats going on. Shark just gallops d crap out of them and are legless on course. Eddie Harty is one of the best in the country IMO. Small string but does brilliant with them. |
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Shark has has a couple of decent seasons as has Rothwell..Considering one of them had a 5% strike rate and the other 3% for the most recent NH season this must rank as one of the most deluded statements ever made on here.As for your assertion as to the quality of horses I seem to recall Shark getting a few huge money purchase from Barry Connell.What happened these???In your efforts to defend your bizarre theories your grasp on reality is becoming more and more tenuous.
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Shark hanlon had 23 winners with a 10% strike rate a few year back which is about right for journeymen trainers.
Answer me this then Tolmi how come Frankel was able to beat all around him and never lose his form when you consider his trainer Henry Cecil would've been in and out of hospital or bed ridden at home with his terminal illness for a fair amount of the time Frankel was in training? |
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Silver are you well? Part of being a good trainer is surrounding yourself with top people. I'm sure Cecil had two or three top class assistants and a few brilliant work riders. I def think you are on d wind up at this stage.
Have you ever been to a racing yard and seen what goes on? I have been to a good few at this stage and the diff in detail and How the yards are run would shock! |
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Typical Silver can't answer d question so he comes back with a question
Of his own!  |
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Isn't that what I'm saying bigwill if the trainer is away for whatever reason the show doesn't stop, experienced staff are quite capable of keeping things ticking over nicely, the trainer is only a cog in the wheel, the staff are a vital part of a training operation as its them that does nearly all the work, while the trainer looks on.
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To a certain extent but you still need the main man there. Watch the Cecil stable go to crap next year without him there. It like any business. The staff do moat of the work but they still need direction and skill of management to keep the show on the road.
Answer d question re Shrk and the expensive horses he received and how he did feck all with them. |
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Name me the expensive purchases he received and the price tag if it was put in the public domain and I'll have a look will.
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charlie hills 3 winners today,(looks to have some good horses and knows how to train them)
 stable is bang inform |
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Why is Charles O'Brien useless Silver?.....alright maybe i'm being unfair but why has he not had nearly the amount of success his brother David had.......both started with the same standard of horse and both taught by the same man.
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P Rothwell has not reached your "benchmark" ratio of 10% any year since the turn of the centuruy'the Shark has done it once yet you say they have had a couple of decent seasons.Jesus wept!
Quite what Frankel has to do with either of the above imposters is beyond me. |
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lads we all know hes wrong no point in arguing with him
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For a man so pure, who doesn't smoke, who doesn't drink, who goes to mass everyday, why does he drug his horses when they run in the Breeders Cup?
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They regard it as treatment there and he just abides by the rules.
The fact is that horses get a lift from Lasix and running without it in America means you don't count. |
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You are letting yourself down with your chippy views here, The Gotchee. Lasix is legal in America, almost every foreign trainer that has runners there uses it to ensure they are on a level playing field.
It is becoming clear that most of the loudest voices on this thread have a chip on their shoulder with regard to the likes of Aidan O'Brien, Bolger and WPM rather than actually having issues with the role that trainers play in a horse's career. Typical Irish begrudgery of those that have risen to the top, unfortunately. |
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Not sure about it giving horses a lift either tbf.....anti-bleeding drug as i understand it.....more prevention than cure......which is why it's legal in America.
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Redbait I actually admire Bolgers no nonsense approach to training his horses, certainly doesn't stock up on the cotton wool, his conservative views wouldnt adhere me to him as a person mind you.
I gave plenty of valid reasons as to why your hero trainers might not be all that they seem, and all I get thrown back at me is Philip Rothwell and Shark Hanlon as if they're proof positive that there is some sort of supernatural skill to training fast horses?. |
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It is an anti bleeding drug but its given to all horses in America because of its secondary effects.
Bill Durkan was a very successful trainer here around thirty years ago,he was the father of John Durkan and a builder the training was a hobby but all the work was being done by Ferdie Murphy. When Ferdie Murphy left and went to England the stable hardly trained a winner and eventually shut down,he is now reduced to having his horses trained by the Shark. John Oxley ran a moderately successful stable in England for years and then he suddenly started firing out winners,it started with the arrival of a young assistant trainer Michael Stoute. Its a skilful job alright and we as Irishmen should be proud that three of its best practitioners are Irish,Aidan OBrien,Jim Bolger and Willie Mullins. |
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No......i give up Wildman...i've been racking my brains trying to think of a secondary effect of Lasix.....please would you enlighten me........
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Silver,
You give zero valid reasons. The reason Rothwell and Hanlon are "thrown" at you is that they are conclusive proof that the trainer does matter.Despite large strings they have virtually every year failed to even approach an acceptable strike rate.You then make an assertion that maybe the horses were not good enough...Do you have any idea how many individual horses Rothwell has trained since 2000?Were they virtually all not good enough?You accuse others of failing the see behind the"myth" of APOB and WPM yet far more glaringly you are blind to the common demoninator in every horse that Rothwell has trained since 2000. |
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As Philip Rothwell approaches the completion of his first decade as a licensed trainer, now is perhaps a good time to review his career to this point. Rothwell started his training career as a fresh-faced 21-year-old and wasted little time in making an impact, saddling his first winner with just his second runner when Adam’s fool won a bumper at Down Royal on May 3rd 1999. Later that month he saddled his second winner when Little Len won a maiden hurdle at Ballinrobe and the following December, that same horse would give Rothwell the most high-profile win of what was an excellent first season as a trainer when upsetting the mighty Risk Of Thunder in a banks race at Punchestown. Rothwell finished the 1999/2000 season having saddled a career total of 10 winners from 85 runners and with his name becoming more and more well known in racing circles, he well and truly had a breakout season in 2000/1.
Rothwell produced a number of prolific performers that term, with seven of his charges winning at least two races a piece, two of those managing to win on three occasions. Perhaps the star of the season was Experimental, who won twice during the course of the season with the highlight undoubtedly being his win in the valuable S.E.R.E. Handicap Hurdle at Down Royal. The season concluded with Rothwell having saddled no less than 29 winners from 276 runners. Not only has Rothwell enjoyed success in the National Hunt arena, rarely does a season go by without him saddling at least one winner on the Flat, with the win of the aforementioned Experimental in the valuable O'Flynn Construction Handicap at Cork in 2001 being the pick of his winners in that sphere. Such a successful season was always going to be a hard act to follow for an emerging trainer and unsurprisingly, the next number of seasons saw Rothwell consolidate his position in the Irish training ranks, comfortably registering double-figure tallies of winners without threatening his 2000/1 total or entering the big-race winner’s enclosure. However, that latter fact changed for the better in 2005 with a sequence of big-race wins being kicked off by the emergence of a horse called Black Apalachi. Having made a successful debut in a bumper at Down Royal in early-2004 and winning a maiden hurdle at Downpatrick in late-2004, the son of Old Vic was pitched into testing company and he duly responded, causing a 20/1 shock when winning the Grade 2 Woodlands Park 100 Johnstown Novice Hurdle at Naas in February 2005. Better still was to come when he was sent over fences the following season, with him winning a maiden chase at Thurles prior to causing yet another 25/1 upset when winning the highly-valuable Paddy Power Chase at the Christmas meeting at Leopardstown. In between those two wins, Rothwell enjoyed another valuable success when sending out Amorini to win The People Newspapers Bettyville Handicap Chase at Wexford. However, those wins were pushed to the background just a few short months later when, at the Theatre Of Dreams that is the Cheltenham Festival, Rothwell saddled Native Jack for the Sporting Index Cross Country Handicap Chase. Sent off as the 7/2 joint-favourite, the revitalised 12-year-old produced a gritty performance under Davy Russell to get the better of the Cross-Country King Spot Thedifference by two lengths, prompting emotional scenes of celebration in the winner’s enclosure. That win kick-started a revival in Rothwell’s progression and since then, he hasn’t looked back. The following season he registered his best tally of winners in five years, visiting the winner’s enclosure of 17 occasions and while the season lacked a big-race win, a number of his horses hinted that it would not be long before they stepped up to the plate in valuable contests and that duly happened in 2007/8. Dark Bolero was the horse in question, winning the valuable Guinness Handicap Hurdle at the Listowel Harvest Festival in great style. By the end of the season, his horses had won no less than 26 races, the second-best tally of winners Rothwell had achieved in his career at that stage. Unfortunately, that season also saw the death of one of Rothwell’s most promising horses, the Gigginstown Stud-owned Call Bewleys. The then seven-year-old had impressed when winning a beginners chase earlier in the season and was running well in a Grade 2 event at Leopardstown in January when taking a fatal fall at the last. If 2007/8 was considered a huge success for Rothwell, 2008/9 bettered it by some margin. In fact, it proved to be the best season in Rothwell’s entire career. Undoubtedly the star performer of the season was the remarkably progressive Jamies Choice who won no less than five handicap chases in the first half of the season, culminating with him winning the valuable Alchemy Properties Handicap Chase at Cork in October. Unfortunately, that would prove to be the second-last start of his career, as he was killed just a few short months later. Other Rothwell-trained horses to acquit themselves very well indeed during the course of the season were the three-time winner Beneficial Spirit, as well as the dual winners Dal Cais, Rockers Field and The God Of Love, all of whom contributed to his best-ever seasonal tally of 32 winners. 2009/10 has started off in highly-encouraging fashion for Rothwell, with him already having saddled 14 winners at the time of writing in mid-September. If he can maintain a similar strike-rate for the remainder, he looks to have strong prospects of achieving yet another career-best tally of winners. In 2012 The Rothwell yard has had 10 winners since January and 52 placed horses to date. |
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John “Shark” Hanlon may have only been training for a few short years, but he has already established himself on a big-race scene and has put together a fine team of horses.
Early Days A man with an unmistakable physical presence, Shark Hanlon was initially involved in the cattle trading business prior to going to work with the Willie/Tony Mullins teams. After learning the ropes with those trainers, he took out his own license to train in 2006. He had the first winner of his training career with Melon Delta in a maiden point-to-point at Templemore on April Fool’s Day 2007 and he went on to have his first winner on the racecourse with Shaimaa in a bumper at Cork eight days later. Hanlon had a more than satisfactory first full season in 2007/8, saddling a total of 10 winners between both codes. His two top performers of the season were arguably the aforementioned Melon Delta, who won a bumper and a maiden hurdle, and Morgansaccord who won two bumpers before meeting with a premature end later in 2008. Stars Emerge The 2008/9 season was even more successful for Hanlon. A notable highlight came when Darenjan gave him his first win at the Galway Festival when comfortably winning the Cork International Airport Hotel Handicap Hurdle. Hanlon almost had another red-letter day at the Punchestown Festival, with him saddling Truckers Delight to win the valuable Masterchef Hospitality Handicap Hurdle and almost making it a famous double on the day as his Sparkling Tara failed by just ½-length when finishing second in the valuable Land Rover Bumper later on the card. However, without doubt the highlights of the season came courtesy of two emerging stars in the yard, Western Leader and Luska Lad. Western Leader made his racecourse debut in November 2008 and by the end of the campaign, he had won two of his five starts in bumpers under his owner Barry Connell. It wasn’t until he went over hurdles in 2009/10 that he really blossomed though, with him winning the Grade 2 Michael Purcell Memorial Novice Hurdle at Thurles in February. Indeed, he would almost certainly have won the Grade 1 Sefton Novices’ Hurdle at Aintree the following April only for suffering an injury in the closing stages. Just before Western Leader made his first appearance on the racecourse, Luska Lad had just won the second of the four bumpers he would win that season, with him also finishing second in Grade 1 and Grade 2 bumpers to stamp himself as one of the leading bumper performers in the country. However, in common with Western Leader, Luska Lad really came into his own when being sent over hurdles in 2009/10, with him winning no less than three Grade 2 novice hurdles. He continued that run of success in open hurdling company, winning the Grade 3 Ryan's Cleaning Events Specialists Hurdle at Punchestown in October 2010 and being placed in many valuable Graded contests. Climbing The Ladder The 2010/11 season was another one of progression and big-race success for the Hanlon yard. As well as the aforementioned win of Luska Lad in the Ryan's Cleaning Events Specialists Hurdle at Punchestown, the ever-green Truckers Delight added another big-race win to his tally in the www.thetote.com Handicap Hurdle at the Punchestown Festival. However, the season was perhaps most notable for the emergence of what could well be the Shark’s most talented horse yet, Hidden Cyclone. Having won a bumper the previous April, Hidden Cyclone embarked on a remarkable novice hurdling campaign in 2010/11, winning five of his six races including a Grade 3 and two Grade 2 contests, with his only defeat being a narrow one in Grade 1 company. This season looks set to be the Shark’s best yet, with him already closing in on his career-best seasonal tally of winners. He enjoyed two notable highlights at the summer festivals, with Truckers Delight winning the valuable Connacht Tribune Handicap Chase at the Galway Festival and the recent recruit to the yard Alfa Beat securing a memorable success in the Kerry National at Listowel. With the mouth-watering prospect of Hidden Cyclone being sent over fences and the longer-term prospect of running Alfa Beat in the Aintree Grand National, the Shark Hanlon looks set to remain a trainer to follow for many years to come. |
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In fairness Silver you have me this time.
They are very impressive articles obviously written by impartial journalists and I accept them as conclusive proof of the validity of your arguments. |
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So Tolmi, Aidan the messiah has sent over 2 horses so far to Newmarket for the colts and fillies 2yo group 2's, one fav the other 2nd fav and both were unplaced, I wonder is that because the horses simply weren't good enough?, but of course if he trains a group winner he becomes a genius again when in fact its most likely he was almost certainly training the best horse in the race anyway yeah?.
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Now that I think of it and in the interests of balance you might be able to do me a favour.I am sadly lacking in cut copy and paste skills but seeing as you were able to paste articles on this thread backing up Messers Rothwell and Hanlon I would like to do the same for Messers O Brien and Mullins.However I'm struggling to post them on here.Maybe the source that you got your articles from would also have something?
Thanks in advance. |
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If hes such a genius as you all like to remind me how come he got both a fav and 2nd fav to run unplaced?, the most likely answer is thats its horses that win horse races not trainers?.
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I think your problem is that you fail to appreciate the body of achievement of a trainer but instead merely focus on individual results.The failure of a couple of horses today will have no impact on the achievements of APOB.However you manage to hold it against him.
You quote horses such as Norton's Coin but you don't mention potential champions trained and ruined by small incompetent trainers. It is obvious that you are unable to accept reason and have deeply entrenched views.However the lack of balance in your arguments is highlighted by quoting newspaper articles when they suit you yet branding them biased when they don't. Not for the first time but hopefully for the last time I have involved myself in a discussion where one party was too blinkered to even consider reason. |
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Maybe its because there is not a lot of reason to your arguments apart from media hype and blind sycophancy?.
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silver how come everyone wrong except u?..do you not smell a rat?!?
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Not a lot of reason????
Fact... WPM improved the horses taken over from a VARIETY of trainers by an average of over 20 lbs. Fiction... Your reason for it Fact...The two NH trainers mentioned have comfortably the worst strike rate of all the NH trainers with over 100 runners per season Fiction...They have had a couple of decent seasons. Of course the horse is the vital element in success but it is the ability of the trainer which gets the best out of the horses.Some are easy to train ,some are difficult but all are individuals.Finding the key is the skill of the trainer.My argument are not based on media hype but on the FACT that these are the consistently most successful trainers in their spheres. It is your arguments which are based on fabrication and your ability to cast often delusional aspertions on successful trainers. Maybe if you looked closely into the reasoning in your own arguments not mine you might find who's theories are flawed. |
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Well kavvie at least gotchee is on my side and willing to see the wood from the trees and look beyond the hype and sycophancy.
Not one of you can tell me what the likes of Aidan and Willie does that many other trainers don't do. Aidans so called attention to detail?, what if he had 4 horses in a race he insists on saddling them all himself?, does that make the horse go any faster?, no of course not, what that tells me this guy is full of his own self importance, going to down to the start to tell the vastly experienced stall staff how to do their job, does that make the horse go any faster, no of course not. Try and see the wood for the trees guys he and all the other horse trainers are no geniuses. |
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good to have gotchee on ur side anyway!?!
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Silver, can't be arsed reading all of this but for the sake of closure, could it be said that within the realm of horseracing and what achievement that allows, Aidan O'Brien and Willie Mullins are brilliant men.
But it can also be said that there are many factors that influence the outcome that ain't neccessarily traits of sheer brilliance, ie. that they are the best judges of staff and that they are best able to convince owners of their ability. These aren't generally traits of brilliance in the overall field of human endeavour, but so much as horseracing allows, they are as good as it gets. So overall, no genius (plural?) here but still two guys that are bloody good at what they do. They seem to me to be guys that are good judges of stock that also have the assets of a lot of the top bussiness men. Albeit in a more shallow pool as fewer have access to the gees than to budnis opportunity. |
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Joined: 02 Nov 09 | Topic/replies: 398 | Blogger: redbait's blog
You are letting yourself down with your chippy views here, The Gotchee. Lasix is legal in America, almost every foreign trainer that has runners there uses it to ensure they are on a level playing field. It is becoming clear that most of the loudest voices on this thread have a chip on their shoulder with regard to the likes of Aidan O'Brien, Bolger and WPM rather than actually having issues with the role that trainers play in a horse's career. Typical Irish begrudgery of those that have risen to the top, unfortunately. Rate reply: | report block user Try and stick to the facts. Not every trainer uses lasix but Aidan is quiet fond of the stuff. Many horses have won at the Breeders Cup without the use of lasix. You are trying to defend the indefensible. |
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I'd love to know what people on here think Lasix does.....it's not a magic potion....
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Lasix might not be a magic potion but it helps a horse breathe better and can also aid in weight loss, but it can be used in more sinister ways hence why its banned by the World Anti Doping Agency because it can be used as a masking agent for other more potent substances.
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