why?drugs?!foodstuff?!..jesus must be very easy hoodwink them urine samplers!!

Why kavvie do you think the stuff is still in their system on race days?, how come most of Al Zarooni's many winners were clean on race day?. it was only when they done a stable raid where they found the positives.

ok silver.so they are drugging them and improving them stones.if you know this and its common knowledge why isnt everyone at it?

You havent proven anything false Tolmi well certainly not in a convincing manner anyway.

BTW you'd want to be pretty naive to think that uses of certain banned substances in racing is only a select few, Gerard Butler has made claims that up to 100 other horses in Newmarket were using the steroid product his horses tested positive for.

Yes kavvie it contained the same steroid that Al Zarooni was using and don't forget the good Queen of Englands trainer Chemical Nick was banned, and then went on to tell a succession of lies and the same vet also worked for numerous other trainers in the Lambourn area, and there was high profile horse Dunguib who incredibly was able to munch his neighbours feed which happened to contain a product that broke down into a potent cocaine like substance, all accidental of course not one trainer would do it deliberately now would they?.

It contained stanzolol the same as Al Zarooni and it wasnt the vet who was injecting these horse but Butler himself which is totally against regulations. Why would he inject them himself if he was not aware that the substance contained stanzolol which would be of obvious benefit to horses in training to build up their bulk and make training them easier.

Some big names are suppose to be involved in Newmarket.

Hong Kong?  Maybe.

I vaguely recall that the horses weight that day was provided and the program detailed the horse's weight for each of it's previous runs.

I suppose it would be possible to weigh horses as they arrive at the track...how much use it would be to punters is a matter of opinion though......there are trainers who swear by it and

there are just as many who don't bother......Guy Harwood a trainer i was with in the late eighties swore by it...weighed horses daily and believed that every horse had an 'ideal' racing

weight and trained them to according to that.....excellent trainer btw......I went to David Elsworth after that a trainer who did everything by feel....had no scales....horsewalker...

nothing.....and had still incredible success......if you were to ask me who was the better trainer was i wouldn't hesitate in naming Elsie in fact he was the best trainer i have had any

dealings with.....if the word genius has any bearing in training horses it's in this instinct or feel or whatever you want to call it that certain trainers have for horses....how much

work to give them...when to ease off them etc....you simply can't write down a template for training a horse...Willie Mullins and his siblings would have learned a lot from their father

but is impossible to teach somebody to become a 'great' trainer....it's something you have or don't imo and Willie obviously has it.

no gotchee but silver is claiming is behnd the success of wpm and apob exclusively

The ability to get rid of the duds quickly is a top training skill.

I haven't read this thread, as I've seen all the over-simplified twaddle from silvergreaser on this subject many times before and it will only frustrate and make me cringe to read it all again.

However, to be brief, having spent lots of time with horses and trainers over the past few decades, my own view is that training is one the toughest jobs going. Never mind all the non-equine business, the accounting, the owner recruiting/management, the debt collection, the endless travelling, the politics and the staff management, but the actual training of the horses is an art form.

True, no man can made a horse improve beyond it's natural athletic ability, but anyone that has experience with thoroughbreds will tell you just how fragile they are mentally and physically. The substantial challenge of training is to tease the very best out of the horse without ruining them physically or mentally. Ruining a horse is easy, be it overworking them and souring them, underworking them resulting in a hard race and souring them, running them in the wrong conditions and souring them, allowing a tempermental rider to give them a hiding at home and souring them, allowing a rider with poor hands to ride them at home and ruining their mouth, plus dozens and dozens more things that can easily go wrong if allowed.

The top trainers like Aidan O'Brien, Oxx, Weld and Bolger have systems in place that have developed over decades that centre on preventing things going wrong. At this stage of their careers, they have seen most things that can go wrong, yet such is the fragility of the animal of they are dealing with, plenty of horses will still go the wrong way.

Poor trainers will still have winners, such is the nature of the game, but they regularly won't get the best of their horses and will often ruin them completely before they get a chance to show what they can do.

This is the skill of training and it is extremely disrespectful to what is an incredible art to suggest that anyone can do it and that all trainers would do much the same granted the same ammo, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Redbait there are more holes than a swiss cheese in your argument.

i think redbait has summarised what we wee all trying to say but hadnt the ability to do so!..were waiting on the swiss cheese reply silver.?

Too much cotton wool in racing,

As for non-equine business, the accounting, the owner recruiting/management, the debt collection, the endless travelling, the politics and the staff management, well I wouldn't say Aidan O'Brien has to worry about much of that stuff, people are employed to do most of that.

As for entering horses in races most of Aidans blue bloods are virtually entered in every listed and group race on the planet the minute they are born nearly?

Not going back that far Pa and whose to say it wont happen in the future?

As for Nortons Coin he would've won a big race at Aintree too only for falling when cruising 2 out.

I'm not going to get too involved in debating with someone that has already made up his mind and isn't interested in listening, but what I will part with is this. On the racecourse is the only place most (including you, evidently) are in a position to judge a trainer's performance, but the racecourse is where all the good results end up. The less favourable results of poor training, the soured/broken down horses just don't get to the track and if they do, they don't last. It is only when you go behind the scenes that you begin to appreciate the challenges that trainers face very day.

Having failed miserably to come up with any factual explanation as to how WPM managed to improve horses taken over from a variety of trainers perhaps you could give your enlightened opinion as to how trainers with relatively large strings consistently fail to get their strike rate above middle to high single digits.Two that spring to mind are the Shark and P Rothwell.

If as you say it is all about the horse how is it that over a period of time the horses from these yards consistently fail to run as quickly as horses from other yards?

It'll b interesting to see what reason he gives for the poor performance of horses from the other yards I mentioned.It will be original I'm sure!

Tolmi, Mr Ricci has invested over 5 million into the Mullins yard in just a few short years as an owner, basically the horses would average out at around €200,000 each an incredible average for national hunt animals, try competing with that firepower at your disposal?.

And Tolmi as I said before if trainers are improving other trainers past pupils by upwards of 20Lbs then questions are entitled to be asked, because what are they doing that others are not?

I think any right minded person would realise you are clutching at straws regarding the improvement in the horses taken over by WPM.I am talking about average NH horses not any of Ricci's.
I still await your answer regarding the other two yards.