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£249,900 = 20%
£251,000 = 40% knee diff haydey. |
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It would make more sense if it was like income tax in that you pay each part in the respective band, ie 40% should really only apply on the bit over £100k, not the £100k itself.
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(isnt actually £250,000 as its charges as well so nearer £300,000)
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i agree lata..mebbe it does? i aint delved into it.
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Without the handful who are filling this thread, I reckon annual profits of £0-25,000 is going to cover the bulk of winners.
Those winners will have charges cut down to commission only and have an incentive to play more. My VIP bloke (long gone) once said to me, "PC was not intended to hit people like you". It took them 10+ years after that... |
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from their point of view tho once over 100k where would the 20% become relevant.
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That was my post exactly Latalome but i didn't explain it as well.
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Drone players could see some major gains on the golf course in 2025
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screaming from beneaththewaves 18 Dec 24 17:31
Let's face it, most of us don't have the numbers for how this will affect us individually. We'll only really know on 13 January, at the end of the first week, when our Expert Fee dashboard appears. Then we'll see what or 'buffer' is, i.e., how much we can win next week before paying the fee. But my guess (and it's only a guess) is that some of us are going to be shocked by how small that 'buffer' will be, and that Betfair are going to be shocked by the exodus it causes. Remember that it's based on having a GROSS profit (i.e., profit before commission) of just £25,000 in the past 52 weeks. There are plenty of punters who have shown a NET profit (profit after commission) of zero, or even a net loss, who will still have shown a gross profit of £25,000 over the past year. And the idea that if you're winning £100,000, then why be worried, is a red herring. £100,000 a year is just £2,000 per week. That means that if you're a punter, rather than a trader, who's prepared to lay, say, £3,000 at evens and let it run, or if you want to have a bet of £100 at 25/1, you're going to have to offer to lay at shorter odds or offer to back at bigger odds to take the Expert Fee into account should you win on the race. And, if you do win on the race, then for the rest of the week you're going to have to offer to lay even shorter odds, or back at even bigger odds, to take account of having burnt through your buffer. As I said, I'm guessing here. The buffer may well turn out to be far bigger, depending on your lifetime gross p&l. But, on the face of it, this is going to benefit the fast pics sharks and the bots trading ticks, while hammering pre-race punters and liquidity. (As usual, happy to have it explained how I've got this wrong.) Indeed. If I'm winning 25k gross profit in a year that's likely to be 15k net profit based on lifetime figures (although a lot of that was at 4+% comm, since the reduction to 2% maybe it's more like 20k net profit?). I'm guessing everyone starts with zero Buffer in Jan next year (?), at least that's what it looks like from their worked examples. If that's the case, and you're above the 25k threshold, don't have a good week in Week 1 ! Otherwise you will be paying this even if you never paid PC before. Also make sure you bet something once a week. E.g. if you only play flat turf then make sure you bet something once a week during the offseason otherwise you can reduce those 25k, 100k thresholds by about a third. |
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wears revs..
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Just clicked my Premium Charge link....Happy Days!
OOPS, SORRY ABOUT THAT This page doesn't seem to exist. Please double-check the link address and try again in a couple of minutes. Alternatively, please go to our Login page |
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PC RIP or as rico would politely say FO@D
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Is the 20% charged on the portion up to £99,999 and then 40% on anything over £100K? Seems very silly if you suddenly go over £100K you end up paying 40% on everything, would be more beneficial to stick under £100K pa if that's the case.
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Surely that would be absurd but people on the threshold will be reluctant to get play weeks where they're paying 40% imo
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Tbh I wouldn't put anything past Betfair. If we say £1924 is roughly £100K pa you be in a situation where earning around £1450 a week would bring in the same wage.
£1924 less £770 (40%) gives £1154 for the week £1450 less £290 (20%) gives £1160 for the week. Means earning almost an extra £500pw wouldn't bring in any benefit to you. |
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The real nightmare would be when you were just on the cusp as tipping over to 40% would be a real kick in the balls costing you bigtime
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those figures are quite alarming Joe
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A question asked by Latalomne and myself earlier Joe , guess it's not made clear as yet but the alternative would be madness.
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Tbh I wouldn't put anything past Betfair. If we say £1924 is roughly £100K pa you be in a situation where earning around £1450 a week would bring in the same wage.
£1924 less £770 (40%) gives £1154 for the week £1450 less £290 (20%) gives £1160 for the week. Means earning almost an extra £500pw wouldn't bring in any benefit to you. Unless you are winning exactly £1924 every week, half the time you will be in the 20% cohort. |
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^ I believe this guy knows what he's talking about.
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You wouldn’t pay 40% on the job lot you’d pay 40% on that week having totalled more than 100k over 52 weeks
If a good week then drops off, or you have a poor week you drop back into 20% on that week profit |
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According to Betfair, the new system will be “paid by a very small number of the most profitable customers on the Betfair Exchange” and result in “80 per cent of players seeing a reduction in fees, with 50 per cent no longer paying any additional fees at all”.
So even if you accept BF's arbitrary estimation, 20% will be worse off under the new system. |
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Albert Einstein 18 Dec 24 19:09 Joined: 02 Aug 03 | Topic/replies: 196 | Blogger: Albert Einstein's blog Unless you are winning exactly £1924 every week, half the time you will be in the 20% cohort. Probably a bit of an extreme example but many traders will almost be on a set wage from trading, I had about 7 years recently where I was within about 6% year on year of my total profits. That's probably down to the set stakes I used and the large number of markets I turned over so things evened out over the year. But imagine winning 150K yearly , I'd take back £90K after my 40%, compare that to someone winning £95K who's taking home £76K. Is it really worth my effort winning 60% more and getting an extra £60K when I'll only be £14K better off. With PC you had no choice as once you hit 250K you were **** now people will have the choice |
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I guess we'll have to see how this buffer works as with things as they stand you could have a losing week and not pay PC the next winning week, now it's last 52 weeks is the buffer gonna make any difference.
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Ghetto Joe 18 Dec 24 18:26
Is the 20% charged on the portion up to £99,999 and then 40% on anything over £100K? Seems very silly if you suddenly go over £100K you end up paying 40% on everything, would be more beneficial to stick under £100K pa if that's the case. 0-100k 20% 101k+ 40% no different to 0-250k 20% 250k+ 40% |
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has to be a 'buffer' or the implied commission change would be irrelevant..PC is settled on gross winnings minus half your charges for that week.Hence if your above 20% ewe dont pay.
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Account goes £25,000 > £100,000 and you win £3,000 ev week (for calculation ease no losers) = -20% PC @£600 = net £2400.
acc now +£100,000 and you win £3,000 ev week = -40% PC @£1,200 = net £1,800 so,what do you do? jack in cos you'll only net £1,800? |
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@screaming
"Remember that it's based on having a GROSS profit (i.e., profit before commission) of just £25,000 in the past 52 weeks. There are plenty of punters who have shown a NET profit (profit after commission) of zero, or even a net loss, who will still have shown a gross profit of £25,000 over the past year." But if you have a gross profit of £25k and a net profit of zero, you have paid £25k in commission (pretty much how my account works, but an order of magnitude smaller) so, since commission is used to offset PC/EF, you are in the clear? Still working it out myself, tbh. |
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But if you have a gross profit of £25k and a net profit of zero, you have paid £25k in commission (pretty much how my account works
£1,250,000 in winning bets? and no profit? |
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An order of magnitude smaller - I make about £2k a year profit and pay about £2k a year in commission.
And I'm happy with that - I'm on here for fun. |
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An order of magnitude smaller - I make about £2k a year profit and pay about £2k a year in commission.
And I'm happy with that - I'm on here for fun. |
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This looks disastrous for me unless I'm misunderstanding things as still trying to get my head around it. . I used to pay Premium Charge on a regular basis until around 2019/2020 when a couple of average years meant most weeks I was under the threshold. 2021 was profitable but turnover was high so I wasn't paying premium charge. Then in 2022 I had a shocking year losing plenty so was then way below the Premium charge thresholds. 2023 was ok and then 2024 has been very good though certainly not getting my losses back from 2022 so still nowhere near the premium charge levels. But now with this new system because I've earnt over 100k in the last 12 months I'm going to immediately be hit badly from what I can see, despite having made a loss over the last 3 years combined. Effectively, it seems your overall history is now being ignored and just how you've done in the last 12 months decides the 'expert fee' you pay. If I'm understanding this correctly I'll have to go elsewhere with most of my betting as having to pay a 40% charge whilst still trying to claw back losses from 2022 seems ridiculous.
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Your lifetime gross needs to be in profit before you pay anything.
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looks like you're now cabbaged.
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James, Ive been here since the start. My lifetime P&L is well in profit. I was just nowhere near Premium Charge because I have a high turnover betting on loads of markets and particularly because 2022 took me a long way from it. Effectively for anyone who has been here a long time and made profit, this new method seems to just consider your last 12 months rather than how you've done over the course of the last few years or lifetime. Looks like it's time to consider other options again.
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@ Longbridge: But if you have a gross profit of £25k and a net profit of zero, you have paid £25k in commission (pretty much how my account works, but an order of magnitude smaller) so, since commission is used to offset PC/EF, you are in the clear?
You'd hope so, wouldn't you? Still working it out myself, tbh. Same here. The formulae and examples on that Expert Fee page seem to be geared for current Premium Charge payers or for when the scheme is up and running. How things are calculated on day one for those of us who've never had to worry about this sort of thing before isn't clear at all. Personally I did a huge amount of arbing on here in the early years, and that ensured I'd had enough losses and paid enough commission that I could never fall into the PC trap. But, as asparagus points out, that safety net has now been cut away. |
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will some folk be having lots of bets (probably to small amounts) on various sports (they know nowt about) to offset some 'Expert Fee' charges ?
raises commission and implied commission levels... more than likely will result in a small profit or loss... just asking. |
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hibs..
have £10,000 on over 1 goal @1.03 have £333 on 0-0 @33 and hope its 0-0. |