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Robbie Dunne/Bryony Frost...
Robbie Dunne/Bryony Frost...
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This "followed by an ambulance" is tiresome as well. It is true, of course, but there are doctors pitchside at football matches, Formula 1 has its medical cars, and so on.
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@glentoby -- that race is very much part of this case, since it allegedly prompted threats to be made. If you look at reports posted in this thread, it is clearly cited.
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A 40 something man promised to hurt a twenty-something woman, Dunne admits he did. The threat still stands. Dunne has not retracted.
And as for being "tried" in public, the leak serves only one party: the defendant. |
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Dear oh dear. What a lot to do about nothing!
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going to post the same myself ramtuna all elite sportsmen have the best medical care at the venues
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Penzance, did Petrocelli ever get that house built? Lol.
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Nowadays in the court of social media a man enters a generally female environment, starts telling them things need to change and the way they've done things for years is wrong he is a misogynistic mansplainer, a woman does the same and she's either a victim or a great feminist. In truth things prob do need changing (whatever the activity/sex of participants) but people just don't like change and being told they may be a little bit wrong. Did anybody try and do anything to solve this before the complaint or was the complaint the first port of call?
i can't believe Frost (or any female jockey) is naive enough to think some people wouldn't be 'upset' by the change in culture or unaware of what went/goes on in the weighing room esp those with family ties to racing. The bha obv needs to sort the process out but there needs to be somewhere to go before things get to the stage they have here. The thing is if they do anything like that you dinosaurs (amongst others) would say it's a load of pc nonsense. you may not like it but these are changing times in the male/female dynamic and a little oil is needed to make things run smoother. |
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Totally agree , too many dinosours all round .
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Self-policing or self-regulating pretty much always ends in disaster - Recent examples include the Banks, MP's expenses is one of my favourites and the bookmaking industry is a good current example.
Lock a child in his bedroom and give him enough sweets to last him a week - pop in two days later to see how "self-regulation" is working out for you  |
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a little oil or i k jelly will suffice
only thing that tends to get things oiled in racing is the application of money |
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Always the dinosaurs jibe. As if that removes any argument against Ms Goodytwoshoes and the supreme ineptitude of the BHA. Men are entitled to strip naked in going about their daily business in the dressing/jockeys room, as they have done for hundreds of years. Change is clearly needed because the BHA have proved, and continue to do so, themselves to be bungling fools and amateurs. Blame them in the main for this shambles, don;t assassinate the reputation of a professional jockey based on hearsay and the premeditated and vicious warping of events to suit an agenda.
And finally, Ms Frost should be told in no uncertain terms that she should line up the horse to the fence properly. That;s what a jockey is there for. |
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Dale Gibson's informed contribution to Dunne..."let it all blow over"
Stole a living for years as a jockey....some things never change |
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Self-policing didn't work with the banks, because the banks knew that the state would ultimately bail them out. There were no consequences to self-policing getting it wrong.
Armytage's point, though, is not whether self-policing is the best way of going about things in horse racing. It's that when it comes to race-riding, it's the only way which works. As he says: Because the perspective of a jockey in a race is so different to what we can see on cameras, there has to be a degree of self-policing when someone is perceived to be not riding safely. In other words, you can't rely on the stewards or the BHA or the media or us on here to get things right, because what we see on the telly doesn't reflect what you see when you're among horses at 40 mph. Is he right? I don't know. But I do know he's ridden a Grand National winner, and I haven't, so I'm inclined to listen to his views. And take on board his fear that this case will make race riding more dangerous, as jockeys will no longer be able to prevent a fellow rider from endangering them. |
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Yeah, that's all fine and dandy unless the "senior" guy/guys that lays down the law is an utter pr1ck or has an ego or is a bully, or has a chip on his shoulder etc, etc, etc.
Like it or not - you need some rules and regulations overseen by somebody that isn't involved and therefore doesn't have a vested interest - otherwise it's just vigilantism (which is defines as: Law enforcement undertaken without legal authority by a self-appointed group of people). |
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Mmm. That's exactly the problem here though. The BHA have completely ballsed up their own duty in policing the weighing room. Firstly by dragging the case out for ever, and then, probably as a consequence, having it leaked to the press.
There's a good system here - riders police themselves, because they're the ones best-positioned and with the most incentive to do so. Then the BHA polices the riders, to crack down on utter pr1cks, bullies, etc., as you say. The problem is the BHA have failed in their duty to do the latter. |
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And, as a consequence, the first aspect of it - the self-policing by the jockeys - will no longer be viable. because they'll now be afraid of the BHA hanging them out to dry to please the media.
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I agree that it could and should have been sorted out in 48 hours. Put them in a room together and have Dunne apologise for promising to injure Frost, retract the threat, and they both could have continued with their careers.
Dunne dug his hells in. If he thinks it is right to say it then he thinks it is right to do it. He has dug his hole. Hopefully the leak won't save him from sticking to it. And that what all she wrote. |
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Totally agree BHA is a shambles - but I wouldn't want to be "regulated" or "policed" by a supposedly senior "jockey" imo.
Off the top off my head I can name dozens from over the years that have a drink problem, a weight problem, a drug problem, an anger management problem, a gambling problem, a problem with losing, etc, etc. I get what you're saying but being "policed" by somebody that you are in competition with/against is a recipe for disaster imo. |
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There again, it's Armytage's view, as a man who rode well for years. Against ours as armchair pundits.
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Elsewhere in that article Armytage tells a story of how those of us not riding in the race can get things wrong:
... one day at Maisons-Laffitte, a (France-based English) trainer marched in and in front of all my French racing heroes, Freddie Head, Yves Saint-Martin and Cash Asmussen, screamed words not even in Dunne’s repertoire to berate me for cutting up his runner in the finish of a lowly amateur race as if I had just cost him the Prix de L’Arc de Triomphe. As the centre of attention I went the colour of a feu rouge, protested my innocence and felt it odd that I was not summoned to the stewards’ inquiry for my misdemeanour. Quarter of an hour later the trainer returned, sat down beside me and whispered his apology. “Sorry,” he said barely audibly. “Wrong jockey.” |
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The culture of self policing is a relic though. You don't need to have been a professional jockey to recognise that. It's the same in almost all professions. I'm not claiming that is correct, but it is a reality. You can't even police your own kids in the way it was done when I was a kid.
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It shouldn't be that complex to have ex professional jockeys, who do know all the tricks of the trade, to be the judges of what happens out on the track.
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True. But then Armytage wasn't a young girl riding in the 21st Century.
I just think the days of "smudger" or "dodger" giving you (even a friendly) whack around the head to teach you a lesson are probably over - certainly in most modern workplaces. The stuff that Armytage has come out with (although well meant) risks making the sport sound like it's stuck in the 19th Century (which of course in many ways it is!). |
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self policing maintains the status quo, the status quo is broken, by todays standards and probably by any standards, if there is a male dominant court, then the court needs to be broken. Kangaroos are not up to the job.
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Let's get this right and stop this emotional crap and get this fair sex nonsense, designed to cloud the issue, put to bed. Nor is she weak physically as her record of hauling half ton equine steeplechasers to regular victory attests.
Bryony Frost isn;t a "young girl", she is a mature woman of 26 and a very experienced and successful race rider with Grade 1 wins, and every time someone uses this age misnomer to misdirect in this case does the case a serious injustice. She chose to join a tough, man's profession, which is still predominantly a man's profession, whatever feminists and feminist apologists may say. Accusing a jockey of deliberately exposing himself to her is disgusting and she should come up with the evidence to confirm that claim. She is going out of her way to malign this guy and destroy his reputation, such as it is, and for that she should be punished should this case not result in any evidence being brought to confirm the same. |
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Looks like you may have a personal issue, LoyalHoncho. There is no question of Bryony Frost being further "punished". She is already punished by the dreadful inaction of the BHA.
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LH, you are quite right that evidence should be provided, but asserting that it is a mans profession and that the "fair sex" (?) is clouding the issue and should be put to bed and that she is going out of her way to malign, suggests that evidence wont be enough? You are very correct in saying that she is a very experienced and successful race rider, but seem to deny her the description of being professional?
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OMG Honcho - listen to yourself - are u RD perhaps or his best mate? Racing 'a mans profession' as tho women shouldn't be allowed near it: racing's a tough sport to compete in for horses and humans - and both sexes bring a variety of strengths and skills into it: as we've discovered this century. I don't believe either sex is'better' than the other though some horses may fare better under male or female riders. Racing has benefitted greatly from the increasing successes of female jockeys.
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I don;t at all disagree with you. And women are perfectly entitled to get involved and without reservation I applaud and support that involvement. My point however still holds good. Probably about 90% of riding jockeys are male, maybe more. Whilst the very best of women are, and have proved to be, capable of winning the biggest races the fact still remains that race-riding is predominantly a man's business/domain. You can;t dispute that. I am a huge fan of Hollie Doyle and always have been and most of the female jockeys now working in the jockey arena and constantly can be found on here defending them and supporting them.
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There you go again biscuits making accusations which have no foundation. My issue is no more personal than yours and I can't help what "things" sound like to you. And I most certainly have never said that Ms Frost was anything other than a professional jockey. She has made shocking allegations and shamelessly milked the soppy, emotional sentiments of people like you biscuits, and her media darling Chamberlin, who keep going on about her sex and physique as if they are somehow relevant to this case, which they are not. And all you armchair judges feel it is your right to malign the reputation, and pillory in public, a professional man who deserves the same legal rights as anyone else. Even against a "young girl" who is so young she is 26. This is a case of alleged bullying and absolutely nothing to do with the sex, age or physique of either party.
Next please. |
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I think some of you are missing the point. When an allegation is made, it's nothing to do with self policing or what any of us would consider reasonable or unreasonable from a personal perspective.
It's about whether any laws have been broken, or to a lesser extent whether BHA codes of conduct have been broken. What can be proved or not proved etc. Ultimately it's not subjective. |
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I not think Frankie should be allowed to self police the young apprentice from last week.
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Robbie Dunne is irish dont forget.
The horsey brigade are racist dont forget. |
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The horsey brigade can't be that racist if they allow Irish jockeys like Robbie Dunne. And Frankie.
Obviously there's a fair way to go before we achieve the fully integrated multiculturalism of Irish racing.  |
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Formed in 2017, the Diversity in Racing Steering Group (DiRSG) is an independent voluntary body providing strategic direction, advice and support to the industry to help progress diversity and inclusion. It’s work is reviewed and supported by the industry’s Members’ Committee, which comprises leaders from racecourses, participants and the British Horseracing Authority (BHA).
How many black jockeys are there ? How many black trainers are there ? How many black owners are there ? How many black racegoers do you see ? Why are the restaurent servers at Cheltenham nearly all black ? Why are those eating in the restaurents nearly all white ? Obviously in four years the DiRSG has done a great job ! |
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Has mick Fitzgerald had anything to say on this subject,he was a senior member of the changing room & gets more air time than any other ex jockey?
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There was an interview a few weeks back with michael holding (of the batsmen's Willie fame) on the opening show.
4 years and there is evidence of a realisation |
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The Professional Jockeys Association has launched a fierce attack on the BHA, describing the length of time taken for allegations of bullying made by Bryony Frost to be investigated and brought to a conclusion as "unacceptable".
The PJA's latest intervention comes the day after a second damaging story in as many weekends appeared in The Sunday Times, a follow-up from an investigation into claims of bullying levelled by Frost at fellow jockey Robbie Dunne. The statement from the PJA sought to defend the image of jockeys and described widespread unhappiness among the association's membership caused by media coverage suggesting the culture of British weighing rooms allows bullying to take place and discourages anyone raising concerns externally. Dunne's lawyers have already argued that the leak of information featured in the first article means a fair hearing will be impossible when the case is heard by the independent disciplinary panel and the PJA echoed that view in its statement, calling for the case to be dropped. The statement read: "The BHA has been aware of a potential data breach in relation to the leaked documents since August and reported itself at that time to the Information Commissioner's Office. It is vital that the investigation into the data breach is concluded as a matter of urgency, the cause of the data breach identified and anyone involved held to account for the distress caused. "The length of time taken in bringing this case to a conclusion is unacceptable. Now that material has been leaked to the media, and the information leaked is the charge letter and accompanying documentation that should only have been available to the BHA, Robbie Dunne and his legal advisers, a fair hearing is impossible. "The matter cannot now be permitted to proceed and we call upon the BHA to bring this matter to an end, however unsatisfactory that is." The Sunday Times follow-up story, written by the respected journalist David Walsh, concentrated on witness testimony from a number of jockeys as well as three valets. The story described the weighing room as having a "culture of silence" and claimed "camaraderie between jockeys has created a culture that condones threatening behaviour and frowns upon those who report it". The PJA statement added: "The PJA is aware that its membership is upset by the negative headlines about the culture in the weighing room that have been circulating this past week. The PJA understands and sympathises with their frustration, particularly from those female jockeys who have contacted us. We are grateful to them for respecting the process that must be allowed to conclude. "The PJA published a code of conduct in May which was the first of its kind in racing. We expect our members to abide by this code. We want to ensure that our sport welcomes everyone and we agree that people need to be held to account against a set of rules and codes of expected behaviour. "We do not, however, accept the explicit and implied criticism of our membership as laid out in recent articles. The PJA does accept that there are 'heat of the moment' exchanges, not uncommon in sport, that are quickly resolved and there may also be occasions when behaviours do fall short of the PJA's code of conduct and the rules of racing." |
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the cherry on top of the cake is surely PJA requesting BHA to drop the case in order to protect one of their members at the expense of another, it's beyond common sense that a properly selected panel would listen/read all relevant evidence without bias to that subset already released in the media. of course if those clowns at BHA had expedited this case (and indeed all cases) there would have been far less opportunity for media leaks, they really are a shower of s***e
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UPDATED 12:41PM, OCT 25
Chris Cook in the RP. We've now had consecutive weekends when horseracing has been front-page material for The Sunday Times. When did that last happen? This might be the first time. Unfortunately, the news has not been good. "Misogyny and bullying scandal rocks horse racing," blared the page-one headline a week ago, above a story that shed new light on the complaints made by Bryony Frost about Robbie Dunne. Yesterday's edition took up the tale again with news of a "fresh complaint" related to the case, in a story that began on the cover of the sports section. It was clear from the first story that the paper's David Walsh had an exciting source who had delivered access to documents which journalists hardly ever see. That truth was reinforced by Sunday's story, based on witness statements from a dozen jockeys and three valets. The motivation of Walsh's source can only be guessed at, but a consequence of their actions is that the reputations of both the sport and the BHA have taken a pummelling. Was that the intended effect? The first story was published on the day after Champions Day, one of the marquee days for the sport in Britain and the most expensive in terms of prize-money. When executives and officials must have been hoping for coverage that would reflect the best of racing, they picked up The Sunday Times and got a punch in the face. Now we learn that some of the leaked evidence was held back for a week, so that a left hook could follow the initial right upper-cut. Is the source enjoying the spectacle of this one-sided battle? And what more blows are yet to be delivered? Ay, there's the rub for workers at 75 High Holborn, the BHA's headquarters. Do they know how much more paperwork the source has in relation to this case, and how damaging it could be if laid before the public? Could it be that the source has access to similar documents relating to other disciplinary cases, completed or pending? For how many more weeks might we be drip-fed material calculated to shock? Racing's insiders will approach next Sunday's papers with trepidation. The Front Runner has, on balance, decided against raking over the substance of this week's disclosed material; by God's good grace, we should get to a hearing some day soon at which all the relevant evidence can be considered. It became clear last week that the leak may pose some kind of threat to the progress of the Frost-Dunne case. Dunne's lawyers complained bitterly about what they saw as the prosecution's case being put on public display, along with very limited detail as to what might be said in defence. "Trial by media is always unfair and a fair trial before a panel after trial by media is impossible," they said in a statement. Apparently, they intend to argue that the case has been so prejudiced that the final hearing of the evidence should not take place. Perhaps you don't fancy their chances of making this stick. We're not dealing, after all, with a jury trial. Those who make up BHA disciplinary panels are qualified and capable people, picked for the task, who can approach a case with an open mind and not be swayed by anything they have previously read; so the BHA is expected to argue, at any rate. But some BHA panel members are lay-people, chosen for their familiarity with the sport rather than their familiarity with legal principles. Sustained media exposure ahead of a hearing surely raises a risk of a panel chairman deciding that a case has been fatally compromised. It is a risk the BHA could do without, bearing in mind its unhappy experiences just five years ago when two disciplinary cases had to be reheard because of procedural failings. Frost would presumably be horrified by any suggestion the case might be kyboshed, as would anyone who believes her grievances must be aired and acted upon. More than ever, it seems important for the BHA to deal with such cases in a timely manner. Frost's initial complaint was made over a year ago, yet we still don't have a hearing date. A second case in which a female jockey has complained about a male jockey is running to a similarly protracted timetable, despite being concerned with just a single incident. Had these matters been dealt with efficiently and effectively, all involved would have been spared the sensation of something looming over them for months on end while bits of information turn up in the media, raising as many questions as answers. At a separate disciplinary hearing last Thursday, the panel chairman quizzed the BHA's representative about why it had taken so long to bring a case deriving from a racecourse drug test taken in June last year. There was a long answer that took in several issues before a final mention of "capacity" as a contributing factor, apparently a reference to the capacity of the BHA's integrity team to deal with its workload. Whatever the explanation may be, such delays have been a problem for far too long and they are now causing bigger problems. |