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Robbie Dunne/Bryony Frost...
Robbie Dunne/Bryony Frost...
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The credibility of the BHA which is already negligible will be non-existent if they drop the case & yet the release of documents to the press hurts them as Dunne's lawyers have valid grounds to say he has been found guilty by public opinion & can't receive a fair hearing ...
The PJA are effectively making Frost the "sacrificial lamb" by asking for the case to be closed & yet should this happen it certainly won't be the final act of the matter as Frost & her legal team will surely appeal any such decision The delays by the BHA show they aren't fit for purpose & its a real mess & highlights how insipid & ineffectual they are ... whoever offers advice to them has failed miserably You can imagine the press having a field day whatever the outcome |
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I wonder what the BHA would do if "poor little Bryony", young girl of 26 that she is, burst into tears on live tv while being interviewed by soppy Chamberlin. They would be slaughtered in the social media courts of public trial etc;
There's your next step Bryony - go to it girl! |
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Dreaming up fanciful scenarios is not going to help, although the Sunday Times and Mail reported Dunne as having reduced another jockey to tears, apparently without being "slaughtered in the social media courts blah blah blah".
If you want to deny Dunne done it, fine. Or maybe he did say those things but it was in the heat of the moment, and he did not mean them and has now signed up for a two-day course in anger management. As other posters have suggested and is backed up by the reports posted from Chris Cook, the BHA's apparently lackadaisical investigation, together with the leaks to the Sunday Times, have left racing trapped with no obvious escape route. The PJA isn't coming out of this smelling of roses either. |
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But what was the 120 page report about then. It is incredible to contemplate such a report in an instance like this. It doesn't add up.
Surely the first course of action by the BHA, should have been to call in the PJA and let them try to resolve it, and then if that didn't work, follow on with Plan B, but if you don't have Plans A, you definitely won't have a Plan B. |
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Who leaked the report and why? It has been said it must be someone in the bha itself.
Did they envisage the backlash and therefore the impossibility of a "fair trial" for Dunne? Was it to out Dunne? Was it to hint at poor gender relations in the ranks (there is nothing to say this had anything to do with gender but you know what people are like who leap to conclusions). The motive for the leak is the most interesting part of this story, imo |
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The motive for the "alleged" behaviour is the most intriguing for me. Jockeys who can't, or won;t, present their horses straight going into a fence are a safety hazard to all around them, not least the horse and themselves. They should be disciplined like any other employee who fouls up in the workplace and required to do a form of re-training to correct the habit. End of for me.
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We cannot speak for the motive of the person who put the case in the public domain except to note the consequence is most likely the case against Dunne will collapse (his lawyers are already pressing for this) and he will get off scot free.
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You only get off"scotfree"if you've done something...as yet it has not been proven that he has.
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Well said lead on and "Scot" free is a very racist term - you should try and moderate your language in the future.
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Is everybody being brain-washed today
 The expression scot free derives from a medieval municipal tax levied in proportional shares on inhabitants, often for poor relief. This tax was called a scot, as an abbreviation of the full term scot and lot, where scot was the sum to be paid and lot was one's allotted share.24 Oct 1998 |
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 Well that takes the biscuits - someone who believes everything he reads in books. A bit like Timber.It wasn't you I was hoping would bite though.  |
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The only conclusion that can be arrived at in terms of this thread is that the BHA are not fit for purpose!! Other reasonable assumptions are that you would not want a group of "peers" from this Forum as a jury at a trial if you were White,Male and Hetero as the accused.
That is not to say that the whole thread is so biased but obvious enough the protagonists who attend LGBTV+ and all lives matter unless you happen to be Male,White and Hetero are on this Forum. Becoming a minority whilst a majority in terms of actual numbers being reflected it appears as life in England..........For BHA sub BBC and most media? Simple fact is if Frost's first name was Barry,Brian or Bob this farce would have ended without official interference and the whole sport would be getting on with entertaining those who are interested in it? |
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her name's Bryony,now that is a fact.
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Checked the nether regions personally penzance?
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So this thing which definitely did not happen (even though he's admitted it) would have blown over if the woman it definitely did not happen to had been a bloke. Got it.
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At last you grasped the nettle ramruna!!!!
FFS how thick are you in real life? |
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Bryony Frost was an exemplar to the sport today. What some scarred ripe old cheeses describe as an act is her natural sunny temperament. She has not changed:- still willing on stop on the way to weigh in in to take the knee, set sown her saddle and cheerfully sign a programme or pose with a random racegoer. Was the same on her way out of the racetrack - she is so popular that her way way halted several times by admirers but she made time for all.
Wonderful character. |
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Unfortunately, some contributors seem intent on parading their own insecurities concerning the opposite sex.
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JFK commited suicide United.........unless you have an open mind e.g you are stating that she told the truth so the other person has no voice?
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Of course Dunne has a voice. He has already confirmed in the leaked report that he promised/threatened to put her through the running rail.
Dunne's lawyers are pressing for the case to collapse. They may very well get the issue buried. That's the opposite of giving a person a voice. |
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By Richard Forristal, Ireland editor UPDATED 6:19PM, OCT 27 2021 As a former jump jockey who has long since given up on the search for a sanctuary to match the refuge of the weighing room, it has been deeply upsetting to see that inner sanctum turned on itself so publicly. Most distressing is the manner in which that space is being portrayed as inherently misogynistic and threatening. In the Sunday Times the last two weeks, David Walsh has conveyed how a BHA report into Bryony Frost’s complaints against Robbie Dunne concludes that “there is a cultural issue in which threatening behaviour is condoned and not reported”. It’s 18 years since I lived in that space, but such a depiction couldn’t be further from what I experienced. Sure, it was a demanding environment in which you were held to account for your actions, but it was safe and respectful and everyone in there kept an eye on each other. Disputes were inevitable and bridges had to be built, but that is the very foundation of the weighing room’s camaraderie – you won’t forge the same deep bonds in a chess club. There is nowhere else like it, and female jockeys are an intrinsic part of the fabric. I went in there as a 16-year-old with no background in the game, yet never felt threatened. If you did something stupid, you got a dressing down and you soon learned about the boundaries. It is an intense professional sporting environment, so by definition it is going to be intimidating at times. That’s the whole point of sport; you can’t sanitise every aspect of life and you learn when to take your medicine and when to stand your ground. As the father of a young girl who is determined to be a jockey, there are many reasons why I would prefer if she pursued some other profession, but the weighing room not being a healthy place for her is not one of them. When I was riding, apart from when they had to sort their gear, many of the female jockeys came into our section because they wanted to be in there. They enjoyed the craic and gave as good as they got. Robbie Dunne: accused of using abusive language Robbie Dunne: accused of using abusive language Edward Whitaker Everyone would sit on the benches or in the tea room together and whether you were a man or woman didn’t matter a damn. You all faced the same treacherous daily hazards. Were they exposed to naked flesh? Yes, that would have been unavoidable at times, but I don’t recall anyone being disrespectful in the way that Dunne is reported to have been towards Frost. You put your towel on and everyone went about their business. Maybe it’s something modern sensibilities can’t cope with, but there wasn’t a remotely sexual or aggressive undertone and it meant the female jockeys weren’t isolated or made to feel excluded. What is so galling about this whole episode is the manner in which these positive aspects of life in the weighing room are being turned on it negatively. Men and women sharing the same space is now something crude; the necessary self-regulating aspect is now being weaponised as a menacing hierarchy, and the solidarity in there is now viewed as unaccepting of someone a bit different. All of this because of a leaked BHA report whose author Chris Watts, the former head of integrity, has recently departed the authority in mysterious circumstances. The whole investigation has a shambolic look to it, and I doubt very much Frost would endorse how the weighing room at large has been depicted. Frost clearly believes she has been bullied by Dunne, and let’s be very clear – as well as his alleged nude insolence – some of the abusive language Frost has accused Dunne of using is vile. Dunne apparently denies using the worst of the obscenities. Bryony Frost: believes she has been bullied Bryony Frost: believes she has been bullied Edward Whitaker (racingpost.com/photos) The root of it all seems to be that Dunne was incensed with Frost for not riding with due care and caution. The Sunday Times articles indicate there was nothing untoward in two specified incidents at Stratford and Southwell, and that the stewards endorsed that view. However, stewards’ ineffective regulating of interference is well established and it is naive to just accept nothing occurred to provoke what followed. At Stratford, Frost’s mount Wisecracker fleetingly cut across Dunne’s horse Cillian’s Well turning away from the home straight the final time. At Southwell, Wisecracker ran down the fence in front of Cillian’s Well, who fell and suffered a fatal injury. That’s not to say Frost was to blame, and it certainly doesn’t justify or excuse the foul language Dunne is alleged to have used, but it’s disingenuous to suggest there weren’t racing incidents that triggered the disputes. What we don’t know was if these were isolated incidents and Dunne was guilty of grossly overreacting because of personal animosities, or if others had expressed similar frustrations to Frost about her mounts drifting across others. In Sunday’s article, headlined ‘Silence of the Weighing Room’, Walsh stated that Frost listed the names of five other female jockeys who had also been on the receiving end of Dunne’s crude tongue. Lilly Pinchin, Millie Wonnacott, Gina Andrews and Page Fuller were presented as active riders whose subsequent benign testimony was evidence of this ‘code of silence’. The fifth rider, Hannah Welch, was depicted as having been freed from such shackles because she no longer rides and stated as much herself. Welch, whose 60 rides under National Hunt rules included nine for Frost’s father Jimmy, offered corroborating evidence against Dunne of a 2018 incident which he either recalled differently or didn’t recall at all. All told, it smacks of a deeply unsatisfactory report, and the fear is that the inquiry into a genuinely held complaint by Frost has been compromised, because the aspects of the BHA report that have been divulged suggest a hopelessly jaundiced view of weighing room. Moreover, the investigation may have been undermined regardless of whether or not the storm blew up in public. According to sources, a number of the jockeys and valets who gave statements believed that their comments were transcribed inaccurately, and some refused to sign off on them for that reason. That would suggest that the entire process has been flawed, and it might also shed some light on why the Professional Jockeys Association was compelled this week to ask the BHA "to bring the matter to an end". Sadly, that ostensibly curious intervention might not be as inexplicable as it first seemed. |
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Mr Forristal paints a picture, albeit one from 18 years ago, of a harmonious workplace however the world (but perhaps not the weighing room - tbd) has moved on significantly and what was seen (probably often incorrectly) as banter can easily fall into the category of misogyny. And yes I'm white, male and in late 50s however I've had a mum, sister and nieces and their lived experiences influence my views to a large degree and even outwith the family, the revelations of #metoo, increase (at least in reporting but anecdotally also in occurrences) of domestic abuse, in many cases leading to significant physical harm and murder, the sarah everard case (and unfortunately many others) clearly demonstrate that us males have a problem, one of which I was likely guilty myself in my earlier years.
I've consistently stated on here and elsewhere that BHA focus on diversity/inclusivity has diverted (sic) them from some far more immediate and pressing issues impacting racing and which they've consistently failed to address and now it seems that they can't even get their flagship policy under the faintest level of control and integrity - if any of the BHA executives had any shame, they'd resign but we live in a world where Dido Harding gets shifted from one failure to another, picking up £1000s of taxpayers money as she goes, so unfortunately it ain't going to happen. I get that Bryony irritates many due to the fawning nature of coverage (particularly from those fools at ITV racing) however as a founding member of the Rachael Blackmore appreciation society, I'm all for female riders in the sport, as they have been in the 40+ years of my involvement. Should they be expected to put up with behaviour which in other workplaces would result in censure and disciplinary action, no way and yes 'danger' in the profession could be a mitigating factor but we've had servicewomen in Iraq and Afghanistan these past 20 years and bullying/overtly sexual behaviour etc are not tolerated (or at least not supposed to be!) there either. I have no idea what happened in this particular case and other than what has been leaked, no one else here on the forum does either, so I'm certainly not going to jump to conclusions but I certainly take issue with PJA requesting that the case be closed with no further action taken as that clearly demonstrates bias in favour of one of their members over another and that must be challenged. The BHA inadequacies in pursuing the investigation and the farcical length of time to bring the case for review cannot and should not be allowed to colour what is a very important issue and one which should concern all of us. |
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question re your post and i don't know the answer, but you point to the pja representing only one of their members, they are a union and membership is a fee based subscription (i think based on riding fee %), so not all riders are members, possible BF isn't and RD is hence they call in support of one
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you're right, I don't know if in fact bryony is a member of PJA, I had wrongly assumed that all professional jockeys were members
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genuinely don't know what % of riders are, but if i were a member of a union i'd be asking why i'm paying subs when they are supposedly there to intervene with the bha when required, if both riders are represented the statement doesn't portray that
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A trade union official will be bound to support his or her member in such a situation. I have experienced a similar scenario with regard to disciplinary action.
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the point they make and that has been made numerous times is this has dragged on too long no matter how complex it is, they really should have sorted this last yr
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No doubt about that elise, thats for sure. The old old story is that racing remains a stone age industry so we should not expect any urgency about such matters.
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there was a time when they'd fight in the changing room, they'd get called in front of the stewards and 5 mins later they'd be in the same car going home, the dynamics have changed, not sure the ability to police the sport has changed much at all
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just add, i don't blame the pja if they only represent one, also i know they are probably more switched on than the bha and likely have a better understanding of the issues in the sport, they do a lot of other good stuff too, but in situations like this i thought they should make it clear if one or both were members because it may influence how people read their statement
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elise - agree, their statement did say their members were upset but assuming at least some female members then you'd have to wonder if their 'upset' was due to the alleged incidents, the inordinate length of time and apparent inadequate investigation, the aspersions cast on the weighing room culture or mixtures of all three
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most jockeys probably don't see an issue or have any issues, they probably think it paints an unrealistic view, but it doesn't change the fact that when there is an issue the governing body or their own historical way of resolving things hasn't been up to the task this time, for me that rests with the bha who have numerous failings every year but answer to no one
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If Frost was a member of the PJA,would she have
gone to them 1st? Perhaps she's not. |
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possibly penz, i think it's fairly obvious she went to her dad though and he would have been quite familiar with how to resolve jockey disputes from his time in there
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If just the one is a member then that is the one who should be represented but if both are then it becomes tricky I should imagine. No union would represent a non member in almost any situation.
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wouldn't surprise me if the bha now want to wait until the source of the leak can be established, it's in heavily in their favour if it turns out it wasn't internal, currently they're being blamed so it's a no lose, get cleared of blame on that and it removes any comebacks re leaked / fairness / poor handling and allows them to deliver their verdict
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a few on here saying that if bryony rode differently then there would be no 'case' - well what do you make of nick scholfield there on carys commodity, trying to come between the two in front, a bloody liability to himself, the horse and all horses/jockeys around him, shocking piece of riding - and no I didn't bet the horse
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genuinely think the people who know the answer to that are the other jockeys
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I think she's a very good jockey,meself.
These don't look too clever,if I'm right,though. June - 7 rides July - 5 August - 6 Sept' - 4 Oct' (so far) - 12 not that many,maybe it's the time of year. |
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or month
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