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I think one can be considered ill-informed, detached and lacking tact if one thinks/believes only stupid people do stupid things. We all do different thing at different time eg one could do stupid thing at times even though one is not stupid; we are not all the same!
Similarly, not accepting accessibility and easy availability of an addictive product is not conducive to induce addiction or over usage eg food. If one has been subject to the above but not become addictive then one is not mentally induced ie one is not conducive to the exposure of the product. I'm addicted to nuts, and I can eat loads eg 1kg of hazlenuts in one sitting or over two days if they are in my car. But I negate the temptation by not having them in my car (accessibility) or in the house - a prevention but not a cure. However, I have an aversion to anything sweet eg sweet pastry, sugary drinks and anything rich. But the majority do not. |
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your not addicted to nuts or you wouldn't remove them from your car, its like saying an alcoholic hides the whiskey in the cupboard and forgets about it, he cant,he,s addicted
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An addiction could take many forms eg dependency, a habit or weakness to a commodity. But that does not mean one cannot break the habit if one knows how to.
And, an addiction to nuts or a food is very different to an addiction to playing fobt where the magnitude and consequences of it is many folds that of the former. Anyway, it's best not to continue with this discussion given the vast gulf between our understanding and perception of the subject. |
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I,d hazard a guess the only thing your addicted to is loving yourself
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"I think one can be considered ill-informed"
The premise for your argument and what you cant appear to get over is you believe that FOBT's in betting shops are the most accessible outlet for problem gamblers. This premise is very obviously wrong. The alcoholic equivalent of limiting FOBTs but keeping every other in shop product intact aswell as the far more dangerous unlimited access to online gambling from anywhere 24 hours a day, would be removing all spirits from behind a bar to combat addictive alcohol abusers while still allowing them to be sold at a cheaper price from the corner shop closer to home. Youre right to say theres no point going on with a discussion when the fundamental argument from one side is based on a false premise, FOBT's are just part of the larger picture and short of tackling all forms of gambling be it online or offline the only logical conclusion to come to is that its time for the punter to take a little responsibility for themselves. If they are incapable then they will continue to do stupid things and be exploited, if not by FOBT's then the next game that comes along. |
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If FOBTs are no different from any other betting medium why not allow an unlimited number in any shop ? Anybody in favour of that ?
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Yes, as long as it's one shop per town.
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It is futile in having a sensible discussion with anyone totally immune to or steadfastly refuses to recognise the negative ramifications of an addiction to playing fobt. This is not a perception as some in the industry would like others to believe but a fact. If in doubt asks the health and legal professionals, and parties affected by the fobt addicts.
Fobt is evil, and must be monitored closely or rid of totally eventually; it is the scourge of betting/gaming. |
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I've said they are exploiting addicts but are not the cause of them
There are many people much more qualified than you that will say they are the cause. |
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Has anybody ever been banned from a shop for winning regular on a fobt?I know a few people who have been excluded from bookies for having a good run.Perhaps it can't be done only in the uk eh were money for the big boys ko's everything else.
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Good question SKY.
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FOBT players are not banned. They are nurtured, embraced and loved. Unlike horse punters who are treated with suspicion and sometimes hostility. Shomething wring shurely.....
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What amazes me is that the bookies have a built in edge of 2.7% on the roulette machines but can have up an average of say 20% edge on horse racing and dogs and even overrounds of up to 140% on Irish racing.
I'm led to believe that if you put say 50 quid on black in the bookies it's randomly generated. But is it? If I go into a casino and stick 50 on black that wheel has no idea what my bet is. |
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No they have a guaranteed edge on roulette. That’s why they love it. All sports betting is based on theoretical edges.
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So it is randomly generated?
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** As in a casino?
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stick to CBeebies stew
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Sorry 1sttime not sure why I quoted you there, must have pressed it by mistake
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Stewart b, yes the machines are completely random, the money is made on the house edge of each game for slots it can be as big as 20% per spin. (i.e. the average probabilies of each winning line compared to now winning lines).
If we take a standard bookies roulette game; 20p Roulette as an example. 20p Roulette is a computerised version of standard European roulette, and as such has 37 possible positions Roulette Machinesfor the ball to land in, 0 through to 36. The odds returned to the player are 35/1 plus your winning stake back, making the odds returned 36/1. The house edge (bookies profit) is the remaining one number, which gives the player a long-term average percentage of 97.2%, with the bookies making on average 2.8%. The speed of play, combined with the amount of fixed odds betting terminals across the country converts this small percentage into huge profits for the four (soon to be three) major betting chains; Ladbrokes, Coral, William Hill and Betfred. |
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The machines are not completely random someone has to program a sequence maybe not exactly but within certain parameters so it cant be random as its a computer
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equine flew 06 Mar 18 21:23 Joined: 28 Aug 02 | Topic/replies: 2,256 | Blogger: equine flew's blog
Stewart b, yes the machines are completely random, the money is made on the house edge of each game for slots it can be as big as 20% per spin. (i.e. the average probabilies of each winning line compared to now winning lines). If we take a standard bookies roulette game; 20p Roulette as an example. 20p Roulette is a computerised version of standard European roulette, and as such has 37 possible positions Roulette Machinesfor the ball to land in, 0 through to 36. The odds returned to the player are 35/1 plus your winning stake back, making the odds returned 36/1. The house edge (bookies profit) is the remaining one number, which gives the player a long-term average percentage of 97.2%, with the bookies making on average 2.8%. The speed of play, combined with the amount of fixed odds betting terminals across the country converts this small percentage into huge profits for the four (soon to be three) major betting chains; Ladbrokes, Coral, William Hill and Betfred. I know how roulette works e f but how do you know it's random and cannot be manipulated to give the bookies more profit? It happened in the past with the old one arm bandits. I know if I stick 50 quid on black my true odds of winning are 18/19 but is this the case with FOBT's? Like I mentioned before, if I stick 50 on black in a casino the wheel has no idea of my bet. I'm suspicious as to if this is the same in a bookies as putting the same bet on there is open to manipulation surely? |
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It is a fact any electronic equipment can be configured/programmed accordingly to achieve its objective, and fobt is no different.
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There's absolutely no point in the books somehow manipulating the FOBTs stewarty. There's c 8000 shops in UK. Each has an average of something like 3.8 machines (there are some shops which due to space limitations have less than 4). At the minimum negative EV of 2.7% (some games are higher) they are already guaranteed to win long term. Presently they make on average £1000 per terminal PER WEEK. That for precious little effort. No odds compilers, no risk management and minimal staff costs (an emptier is more or less all that's needed).
That's why they love 'em. Why on earth risk that for short term gain when you're going to get the dough anyway? |
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I listened to the interview and the arrogant, almost defiant attitude of Billy's Communications Director certainly didn't help, but it was a complete train wreck as far as the industry propaganda they were clearly hoping to spew over the airwaves was concerned.
I only wish Stephen Nolan knew that FOBTs were only the top part of a very large iceberg when it comes to the obscene commercial activities of the bookmaking industry in this country... |
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There's c 8000 shops in UK
You can at least half that if the maximum bet is reduced to £2. That said, impossible123 backs up my point. |
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** It's called greed.
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@know all
"The machines are not completely random someone has to program a sequence maybe not exactly but within certain parameters so it cant be random as its a computer" Not true AIUI - I think gambling applicatiosn use hardware RNGs (Random Number Generators) which are proveably properly random - they're used for encryption so they have to be. |
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This is my brief take of fobt from conversations with people within the software and gaming industry.
It is true RNG will generate a random winning number but fobt does not operate in the same manner as a casino machine ie a player cannot be consistently lucky and produce a series of wins playing fobt unlike a casino machine where one can win a large amount (if one is extremely lucky) and the casino could lose a small fortune. Thus, one does not hear a fobt player winning big unlike a casino machine player. The payout ratio of fobt is also fixed but can be altered (if necessary). However, the payout on the fobt is governed by the "hopper" effect eg if the hopper is full then there is a more likelihood of a payout in the immediate future and the lucky player will win at the expense of the previous player/s who'd unknowingly topped up the hopper with their money. However, if the hopper is empty eg the machine had just paid-out the hopper will need to be topped-up (by an unlucky player) before a payout can happen again. And this could be some considerable time because the ratio of the overall payout is also governed by the overall takings eg if the overall taking is only 1/3 of target ie the ratio has not been reached then no payout in the immediate future until it has. Because of the number of machines in the bookies the bookies can be assured they will always win given the fixed payout ratio; hopper effect; limited funds of any player to play till hopper effect is payout positive; ratio of overall payout to overall taking eg on a quiet day a lower number of payouts. |
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I've often seen runs of 5 blacks or 5 reds sometimes more saw the same number come out 3 times out of 4 spins when not covered these machines are not random.Go to your local bookies on a weekend and see the despair these machines cause.Its a lazy way for people to bet takes no skill and the speed gives the buzz or despair yes people do win these machines are not the same as casino roulette.
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The "Hopper" effect???? Hmm.
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Interesting post impossible123 I didn't know that
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It's not surprising you didn't know it.
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AT Gentings last week saw a run of 22 yes 22 black numbers on the bounce, so that must mean the wheel is not random....in the long term the edge with the Fobts is exactly the same as live roulette.Cannot believe this fixed theory emerges every time Fobts are mentioned.
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I'd only heard of the 'hopper' connected to bandit machines
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nortons
Date Joined: 29 Aug 02 Add contact | Send message 07 Mar 18 19:37 Joined: 29 Aug 02 | Topic/replies: 826 | Blogger: nortons's blog AT Gentings last week saw a run of 22 yes 22 black numbers on the bounce, so that must mean the wheel is not random....in the long term the edge with the Fobts is exactly the same as live roulette.Cannot believe this fixed theory emerges every time Fobts are mentioned. A bit of a contradiction there? |
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Tbh I was surprised too with the mention of the hopper. Nevertheless, one must not forget or ignore the fact fobt is evil. We do not have casinos in the high street - these entities are mainly out-of-town - so why are fobt with a £100 max per spin very 20 second be allowed to be housed in these premises on the high street?
Frequency of play, immediate reward and accessibility are three key ingredients to inducing an addiction. And fobt has these in abundance. |
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there is no such thing as a hopper effect on fobts
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