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The Sun -declaring Leave
The Sun -declaring Leave
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That is why it is different for all Saddo, and why not all people will vote for the same reason on both leave and reamin.
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People saying the NHS will be better off if we leave are completely clueless. 1. The economy is sure to crash. Virtually every independent economist recognises this, the markets recognise this. The only people who don't are the blind leavers. 2. We will have a government led by Johnson, Gove and IDS none of whom even believe in a free health service.
In addition this is about moving forward in a integrated peaceful Europe where we all work together to provide a better future. It's not about division led by right wing tabloids and Farage with his Nazi style propaganda. |
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No its about furry rabbit socialists who have destroyed the prospects of the youth of Europe based on their crazy world of correctness.
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A tiny part of me would love to see what Boris does if it does happen. Probably beg to rejoin! I am still waiting for a last minute switch of sides from him if he believes remain will win. All for his career I am afraid.
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Paganin when you have a bet and you are turned away do you give up or go elsewhere? Exactly.
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6m
Britain Elects @britainelects EU referendum poll: Remain: 48% (-) Leave: 49% (+1) (via SurveyMonkey / 17-20) Pollster not a member of BPC. |
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Johnson without doubt on the leave side for his career. A chance of becoming PM. Don't see him switching now though even if he thinks he can't win.
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The economy crashed in 2008 yet the NHS survived so scare mongering doesn't work.
We need more skilled labour to put good money into the Exchequer and use less resources than the masses of unskilled. cheap labour who put little into the Exchequer while being a heavy drain on resources. It is not rocket science. And the only way we will attract more skilled labour while curbing the mass of unskilled labour is to LEAVE. |
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Apparently all the independent economists are wrong and Brigust is correct on his assessment of the economy. It's a simple maths equation. If the economy is doing much worse there is less money to go into services. (especially with a right wing government)
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Gordon Brown making speech Edinburgh,45 mins
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You keep saying "It's not rocket science".
But where do you answer the simple question; who will do the jobs that migrant workers currently undertake? My company employs 2,500 temp workers a year; mainly unskilled and semi-skilled. I can never get more than 5% of the workers we need from the indigenous stock. And, yes, we pay everyone properly and comply with all obligations as an absolute minimum. |
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Asparagus how do you work that out. It is REMAIN nonsense.
Boris has chosen a side that at the time had no chance of winning and he was backing a system against the status quo. He would have had much more chance sticking with the REMAIN side and waiting until Cameron resigned ffs. By choosing the LEAVE side he and Gove have possibly sunk their chances of being PM. I wonder how many of the REMAIN MP's are only doing it for their careers and not the country? |
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brigust1 21 Jun 16 15:47
The economy crashed in 2008 yet the NHS survived so scare mongering doesn't work. We need more skilled labour to put good money into the Exchequer and use less resources than the masses of unskilled. cheap labour who put little into the Exchequer while being a heavy drain on resources. It is not rocket science. And the only way we will attract more skilled labour while curbing the mass of unskilled labour is to LEAVE. Agree with all that. |
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But we are not getting the money from low skilled, cheap labour ffs.
I guess the reason you can only get 5% from the indigenous stock is that they cannot live on the wages you pay. That needs to change. Either someone is taking the cream off the top or the price of product they are producing is being keep artificially down. This may be good in the short term, but is not sustainable. The EU and the British government is using the same system. 'System working well send more money'. |
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Brigust- the bet analogy is obviously a stupid comment and has nothing to do with the referundum.
Cyclops is exactly right and I see the same on the workforce. On the manufacturing shop floor in lower skilled jobs Uk people would rather not take it. You have a simplistic view of things Brigust from an economic perspective. There is absolutely no guarantee that the NHS wont be worse and you think its a done deal. Lots of skilled migrant workers have helped the NHS massively too. As for Boris- oh please. Even the most ardent leave supporters know it suits him in his quest for number 10. |
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That is such rubbish. How can Boris or Gove stand to be PM is he loses the referendum? It's total nonsense.
What you are telling me is that if we leave you haven't the ability to steer your company successfully. Is that what you are saying? So if we vote to LEAVE you are just going to give up. Leave it out. Hopefully if we vote LEAVE the people who have been making hay off the backs of cheap labour, illegal immigration etc will feel the pinch. They have driven a whole generation of this country into non home owners to suit their own ends and the ends of their profiteering paymasters. Shame on them. |
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Why do you think the rich have got richer and the poor, poorer?
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Boris has led leave so that if they win he thinks he will become PM! He has Identified it as a way into power. I am amazed you can't recognise that he sees this as his opportunity.
You make running a business sound very simplistic. If you sell to European governments and those governments stop buying then of course you have a problem Brigust. For governments read any company in fact. As for steering its not like driving a car either! External things out of your control often lead to massive problems. Of course I am not going to give up but why would I want to make it more difficult for myself if I can't actually see any definite and real benefits of leaving. |
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brigust, your argument is based on an incorrect premise.
You say wages at the bottom are so low, Brits won't work for them, ignoring the fact that our minimum wage is now the highest in Europe, with the exception of Luxembourg. And it is due to rise by around 8% pa until 2020. Wages at the lower end have risen, and continue to rise, sharply, allied with an increase in the tax thresholds, so that the lowest paid are far better off than a few years back. And still, Brits are unwilling to undertake such work, so we need migrants. And we now have "full employment" so, in economic terms, there wouldn't be enough people to do the work if you cut down on migration. How would that help anything? Xenophobia can blind people to the facts and has done throughout this campaign. |
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There are no definite benefits to leaving. A few guesses, a lot of unknowns and a massive downside according to independent economists.
The rich are getting richer and the poor poorer because we have a Conservative government (and before that a new labour government who were virtually Tories in disguise). I'm not saying that's wrong necessarily but that is clearly the reason for the widening gap. It has very little relevance to leaving or staying in the EU. |
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I wonder if any of these economist have ever worked out how much a migrant arriving here with a wife and 2 kids must earn to be a net contributor to the country. That is taking into account housing, health care, schools, social services, child allowance etc. It could be an interesting calculation.
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Xenophobia and people getting immigration confused with asylum seeking Cyclops.
On immigration if we leave, don't you think that people will flood in over the next two years or so while they still can. Numbers will go up rather than decline while we stay in and 2 years wont be it. Gove himself says 4.Immigration shouldnt be an argument to leave. |
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Pag that was a much bigger gamble than waiting until after the referendum and DC to leave. It is that fact that convinces me he is genuine. Unlike Teresa May as one example.
Don't insult me Cyclops, I haven't insulted you. If we have full employment why, please tell me, do we need another 300,000 immigrants next year, and the year after, and the year after. The health service will not get better, it is at breaking point now. The schools and prisons are fully and there is a huge housing shortage. The Government is cutting everything from children's services to women's services, libraries, you name it. And you want more of the same? |
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Boris genuine!!!! You cant seriously believe that. He was an open supporter of the EU only a year or so ago. Come on Brigust. Some of your arguments are valid and I respect your opinions but Boris genuinely wanting to leave the EU....
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We are continually told that unskilled migrants are going menial jobs which could go to skilled workers - why would an employer pay somebody more for doing a similar job?
The EU introduced either directly or indirectly legislation which protects workers and I can guarantee that the likes of Johnson, Gove et al would quickly erode employee rights if we left with their philosophy of free market enterprise |
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I'd vote to stay in the single market. I'm in favour of the single market," he told Sky News. "I want us to trade freely with our European friends and partners."
A Boris quote from 2014!!!! |
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To say that we will no longer have access to the European labour market if we leave is a total nonsense.
We keep hearing about the thousands of migrants without whom the NHS would be in dire trouble and I agree. However,if we leave what is to stop us doing what countries like Canada and Australia have done for ages, and hire qualified people from other parts of Europe? |
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I am not saying immigration should stop. I am saying we must be more selective at this time to balance the ship. If we keep refusing skilled labour the companies needing skilled labour will leave set up elsewhere.
A year ago Cameron said he was going to Brussels to get massive changes. He sold it to me and he sold it to you but he came back with less than nothing it was a complete con. He even watered everything down before he went. If he thinks immigration should be in the 10s of thousands, which he did, why is it OK now? That is why Boris thinks we should leave. I'm in favour of the single market as well. But why should I have to pay to be in it and also pay tariffs on other countries imports just because I am a member? |
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The EU is just like pyramid selling it is a money making exercise for an elitist group to control others. Not for me.
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I'm in favour of the single market- so are you voting remain then?
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brigust:
"If we have full employment why, please tell me, do we need another 300,000 immigrants next year, and the year after, and the year after". Because, if the economy grows, more jobs will be created. The economy will not grow if there are insufficient people to do the work, skilled or unskilled. |
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from the guy who sold gold
Staying in the EU will create 'up to 500,000 jobs' in the UK, former Prime Minister Gordon Brown |
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Do you really think leaving the EU club means leaving the single market Pag? Do you seriously think BMW, Volkswagen etc well not want to sell us their cars? Do you really think that.
What the EU is really afraid of is that we can manage very nicely without them thank you. They are dinosaurs but don't yet know it. Wrong Cyclops. What we will end up with is a back street country providing masses of cheap labour for big businesses who will make all of the profits and they will not be in this country. They are not our businesses they are foreign businesses. We will be the workhouse of Europe. |
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By LEAVING we will be able to bypass the middleman, the EU establishment. We will be trading directly with the big and small businesses in Europe and doing it very nicely thank you.
The middle ma, the EU establishment, will crumble and fall as it has been for the last 25 years. |
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Why do you keep talking about cheap labour when, as I mentioned, we have the highest minimum wage in Europe?
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Brigust- you are ignoring some important facts. I dont disagree that the EU needs massive reform at going forward it is essential this happens. I only hope that we can be a part of that and change things for the better.
There are many other smaller companies than BMW etc that will be effected. As always people focus on the headline making companies and ignore the smaller ones who dont have the brand and size but do still employ and pay people. If we leave the EU do you seriously think we will be welcome to do trading deals with open arms. As much as I dont like her Merkel was fairly conclusive when she said we wouldnt be at the front of any queue! We wont be at the table so wont have much say. I do think we sometimes think the UK is irreplaceable in all areas of business. I am not so sure Brigust |
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We will be directly trading with people in the EU. From this can I conclude you havent ever directly traded abroad? It really really isnt that simple and trust me it is far easier to sell to countries in the EU than those outside it. Being part of the establishment as you put it makes doing business a hell of a lot easier.
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The minimum wage Cyclops is an accountants dream. Giving the low paid spenders, not savers, more money helps business. They spend more, generally all they have because it is only small therefore creating more turnover therefore creating more lower skilled jobs. It's a cycle that only helps those at the top. You then get more people in spending more small amounts of money creating more low skilled jobs servicing their requirements. The problem is unless the numbers are huge it doesn't work and the infrastructure buckles under the strain. And that is where we are today.
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Germany has made hay out of this situation that is why Merkel is pro EU. But the German businesses will not stand back when it comes to trading and Merkel will have to go with the flow or step aside.
And the small businesses, so far weighted down by regulation, will still want to trade with their existing customers. |
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Brigust- how do businesses just give low paid spenders more??!! Again I dont get this. Market conditions dictate wages etc- do you think companies will just double wages so Bob has more to spend in the pub!!?? Its not the real world mate.
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