There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
These 145 comments are related to the topic:
What's the difference between Black Caviar & England Soccer?
What's the difference between Black Caviar & England Soccer?
sort by:
Show
per page
Replies: 145
|
By:
Angel Gabriel 27 Jun 12 19:00 Joined: 09 May 05 | Topic/replies: 5,553 | Blogger: Angel Gabriel's blog The form is there for all to see. If it wasnt them doing the job it would another. On the flip side, if they where so far off the mark they why arent they rumbled all the time? Of course we need form lines where horses are running against each other and with the Australian/UK connection it can be ambiguous the gulf in class. Yet we can only go on what we see. Black Caviar struggled to stay the 6 furlong at Ascot and is on what we saw, no better than a 120 rated animal. Over 5 furlongs i think she would be much better. Indeed. & Septimus & Yeats have been two of the worst performed horses sent to Australia to race. Impossible to think how Yeats could win a half decent race in the UK let alone multiple Gold Cups. Thought the staying ranks over ther were stronger than that. Obviously not. |
|
By:
put it in reverse, it would be like Frankel comming all the way out here for the Cox Plate, experiencing conditions he has never had to face before, like a day with plus 30 degree temperitures, resulting in him weakening in the straight and falling in to win my a head.
Of course aussie's would rubbish the horse and say he's overated, wasn't he supposed to win by 15 lengths? No wonder he's unbeaten, first time he's faced some real competition, UK horses obviously not very good, unfuriatingly forgetting all the good performances by UK horses half as good as Frankel in the Melbourne cup almost every year that proves otherwise. |
|
By:
 The Melbourne Cup is a stop start stop start handicap over 2 miles. Its not run in a normal manner, its an unusual race.Yeats missed the break and was even beaten by Land n Stars who was never in the same class as Yeats back home. The problem you have with your argument is that our middle distance horses mop up in Americas Breeders Cup meeting. What do the Aussies ever win? |
|
By:
only your Prince of Wales and Eclipse... apparently not very strong races
 |
|
By:
Yep trained by a Paddy. Good one. Anymore?
 |
|
By:
It seems like any time England or Ireland send a horse over for the Melbourne Cup, unless they are just handicappers they seem to automatically get top weight.
Yeats was given 9-4 and then 8-11 was the next highest weight in the field despite running in the race for the first time and had only won the Ascot Gold Cup once by then. Septimus was given 9-3 and then 8-9 was the next highest and again was running in the race for the first time and yet Makybe Diva in her first run was only given 8-0 and the 2 top weights that year had 8-10 and both were trained in England. Her 2nd win she still only had 8-11 and the top weight on 9-2 was Vinnie Roe, an Irish horse that finished 2nd beaten 1¼L giving away 5lbs and even the 3rd year she only had 9-2 and the same weight as Vinnie Roe again. Yeats was also giving away around a stone to horses he had previously beaten in the Ascot GC and other Gr1 non-handicap cup races. |
|
By:
Without a doubt the Melbourne Cup is the most over rated flat race in the World.
|
|
By:
Only in your head.......you lot under-rate it and in arrogance continue to bring out the wrong type of horses to win it. Many still do and still bring out dour plodding stayers, with no speed in their legs.
You generally need a horse that can sprint and stay to win a cup. Look what AOB did in arrogance thought he could outstay them and sent his 3 out at a ridiculous pace as if they were leading the peloton in the Tour De France. The penny has only just dropped. |
|
By:
I agree that AOB was a fecking idiot to try that. Its a tough handicap to win. As i said its an unusual race, due to the tempo. I think you need a decent 11f horse who can stay a steady 16f but who can relax in the race.
|
|
By:
I do cut him a bit of slack, because in the lead up, there was a lot of Media pressure about which one was going to be his pace maker, and would they take the race off him if he tried it, because that is banned here. So with the threat of the race being taken off him i think he decided to roll the 3 of them to the lead and try and make it a staying test.
|
|
By:
In fairness it's a bit harsh to say we don't know the types of horse to bring over when Red Cadeaux was beaten a nose and only be a French horse/another European runner and so beat all of the Aussie runners where presumably their trainers do know the type of horse needed, unless they forget what it takes that year.
If you then factor in the year Shocking won it by ¾L when carrying 8-0 from the English based Crime Scene with that one carrying 8-5 and then the ex-English trained Mourilyan was another 1½L back in 3rd carrying 8-8 in his first run for his new trainer. Then you have Bauer beaten a nose and Purple Moon beaten ½L when giving away 2lbs to the winner with an Aidan O'Brien runner in 3rd all seems to suggest they do know what type is needed. |
|
By:
*by.....only by a French horse that should read.
|
|
By:
Impossible to think how Yeats could win a half decent race in the UK let alone multiple Gold Cups. Thought the staying ranks over ther were stronger than that. Obviously not.
If Yeats hadn't picked up an injury as a 3yo he would probably have won the Derby (short priced favourite) and his career would have been a lot different. Sending horses for the Melbourne Cup wasn't considered anything more than a novelty until Vintage Crop won it. Yeats wasn't the right horse to send (his form was always so much better at the start of the season then the end) but he's the best that's ever been sent. If horses of his quality were sent every year they'd be successful more often than not. |
|
By:
http://www.goracing.ie/HRI/Whats-On/About-Horse-Racing/Profiles/Horse-Profiles/Yeats/
|
|
By:
Yep trained by a Paddy. Good one. Anymore?
Yeah trained by a Paddy who readily admits he has only just found out how to get the best out of him. How are we supposed to win any more when we don't bother entering? Haradasun won the Queen Anne trained by the same Paddy. Not quite middle distance but not sprinting either. The Problem with the Breeders meeting is that Aussie's would be mad to travel to America at the same time as the Melbourne Spring Carnival is on. Our prizemoney is pretty good too. The only real overseas smash and grab option is June-Julyperiod because it is winter here and while racing here continues, big prizemoney is not on offer. Also taking sprinters over is more appealing because they take less training and time to prepare. They can be sent over and brought back and still given a bit of a spell before starting up again for Spring. |
|
By:
Is anyone really believing that O'Brien claptrap about not knowing how to get the best out of So You Think?
The horse is clearly very good but no superstar and they need to both protect their investment as a breeding operation in both hemispheres and so needed to provide excuses for why the horse was getting beaten. It has never even run a bad race though since O'Brien's had it and in England has only been narrowly beaten at the very highest level whenever it was. It was never going to win the Arc off level weights against genuine Gr1 quality 12f due to the trip and don't bother mentioning the 3rd in the 2 mile Melbourne Cup as they aren't genuine Gr1 horses and he was only carrying 8-11 against handicappers. The US and UAE runs were more than likely afterthoughts in an attempt to try to redeem his reputation as a "superstar" and probably weren't exactly in the horse's best interest but I don't really see how on the evidence of any of his runs that it points to any way in which he has been badly trained and reckon that's a case of O'Brien being benevolent on the horse's behalf and taking blame where there wasn't any needed. |
|
By:
Makabye Diva was given a light weight in her first Melbourne Cup because she was a newcomer who had never before run over 2 miles... whats a handicaper to do? Give a horse topweight when never running over the trip and never winning any other major race of note? It is true she was a weighted certainty that year, the connections and trainer knew what they were doing.
Her second Melbourne Cup, the handicaper can't be too harsh, an 11 lb penalty is still a hefty penalty for winning last year. Anyways she showed her versatility and won it on a very heavy track which made that years race a true staying test and should have suited Vinnie Roe, it did suit him and he ran his best race in the Melbourne Cup, but she was just too good. Yes in her third year, she was allotted 9-2... technically more than Vinnie Roe because she is a mare. But she was much too good for him again. |
|
By:
to be fair, UK runners more often than not run a great race... if not winning it, they are placed 2nd 3rd and 4th regularly.
On the whole I think UK trainers have figured the Melbourne Cup out and should be given credit. |
|
By:
Regarding So You Think, whatever the case with his training... we will never know for sure.
What I do know is a bad ride when I see it, and So You Think was ridden badly in last years POW... This is the fault of not only the jockey but also the trainer's overconfidence. I have no doubt if he was ridden more patiently last year, he would have saw off Rewilding's challenge. And he would currently be a dual Prince of Wales winner... and in a couple of weeks very likely dual Eclipse winner, on top of his two Cox Plate wins. How does that not qualify him as only a very good horse? You have a bigger 10f race than the Prince of Wales? |
|
By:
*How does that qaulify him as only a very good horse?
|
|
By:
`A very good horse` is still realistic to his ability. He will never be mentioned with the greats.
|
|
By:
The press going overboard notwithstanding... he was never considered a "great" in Australia either, he certainly isn't mentioned in the same breath as Kingston Town or Tulloch, let alone Phar Lap.
|
|
By:
Kingston Town was gelded after his first race as a 3 year old wasnt he? And after that improved at a rate of knots which took connections breath away. I like these stories. Couldnt sell the horse for 8K as a yearling
...but went on to be a wonder horse. Great story. |
|
By:
Yes, Tommy Smith was not one to worry too much about his horses stallion prospects... if they were wayward and didn't have their mind on the job, he gelded them... certainly worked wonders for poor old Kingston Town!
|
|
By:
A lot of your best horses do have that rags to riches aura about them. Not exactly bred in the purple but defy all expectations.
|
|
By:
Aussie racing industry is huge, second only to the US in number of runners I think. Goes back to the old theory, if you throw enough numbers (horses) at a problem your bound to uncover a freak or two along the way :)
|