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BLACK CAVIAR knows how to win a Trophy.
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Camelot's rating was pre Derby btw, you have to make your own mind up how much value you place on these international ratings, I'd deffo be giving Camelot a boost for being able to win two Classics over 8 and 12 furlongs, it incredibly rare and it's from just four starts.
Nobody knows yet, but be prepared for all the vets to come out here with their diagnosis.
i personally dont think she like the track or going much, if she was injured far out i'd say it was still a good performance for a horse thats travelled 10k miles, i dont think she is the best in the world though but top 3
Yep Deacon Blue at 120 and he would be the standard which your horses would have beat. It really is pathetic how the Aussies cant grasp the gulf in class between Frankel and our 120 sprinters.
tbf i think our sprinters have been poor for a while, but DB seems to be a touch above the norm
whats the highest rated yank sprinter
whats the highest rated yank sprinter
No_BS
Didn't know we used ratings, we certainly don't put any credibility in your's.
We judge by wins and prize money and she has both, when the Cotton Wool Kid decides to play with the other horse instead of just his own then we will see.
They aren't our ratings, the are from the World Thoroughbred Rankings published by the International Federation of Horseracing Authorities and made up of various country members and the clues are in the words World and International and are the very same ratings that many Aussies pointed to as proof of Black Caviar being the best horse in the world when she topped them.
As for prize money, Black Caviar had won 22 races and averages £177,906 a win as opposed to Frankel's 11 wins averaging £151,857, so not really a massive difference especially when you consider BC won £283k compared to Frankel's £198k for their RA wins. Incidentally, BC has only won more than that £283k in about 5 of her 22 races and one of those was the same race twice.
Oh and if the Cotton Wool Kid is Frankel and you are waiting for him to play with the other horses then I'm afraid you are too late as he already has and has beaten horses from England, Ireland, France, Germany, (ex)Australia and Japan, which is more of a variety than Black Caviar has beaten.
Didn't know we used ratings, we certainly don't put any credibility in your's.
We judge by wins and prize money and she has both, when the Cotton Wool Kid decides to play with the other horse instead of just his own then we will see.
They aren't our ratings, the are from the World Thoroughbred Rankings published by the International Federation of Horseracing Authorities and made up of various country members and the clues are in the words World and International and are the very same ratings that many Aussies pointed to as proof of Black Caviar being the best horse in the world when she topped them.
As for prize money, Black Caviar had won 22 races and averages £177,906 a win as opposed to Frankel's 11 wins averaging £151,857, so not really a massive difference especially when you consider BC won £283k compared to Frankel's £198k for their RA wins. Incidentally, BC has only won more than that £283k in about 5 of her 22 races and one of those was the same race twice.
Oh and if the Cotton Wool Kid is Frankel and you are waiting for him to play with the other horses then I'm afraid you are too late as he already has and has beaten horses from England, Ireland, France, Germany, (ex)Australia and Japan, which is more of a variety than Black Caviar has beaten.
ima_mazed66
When: 27 Jun 12 01:28
Joined:
Date Joined: 12 Oct 09
| Topic/replies: 3,109 | Blogger: ima_mazed66's blog
As for prize money, Black Caviar had won 22 races and averages £177,906 a win as opposed to Frankel's 11 wins averaging £151,857, so not really a massive difference especially when you consider BC won £283k compared to Frankel's £198k for their RA wins. Incidentally, BC has only won more than that £283k in about 5 of her 22 races and one of those was the same race twice.
Imamug66 there you go showing your intelligence regarding Australian horse racing and prize money, IT’S A COMMON FACT !! to even a MUG punter that sprinters in Australia race for less money than horses who can run further. Another bit of eductation for you.
Doncaster $2,011,500,
Cox plate $3,050,000
Golden Slipper $3,532,500
Melbourne Cup $6,200,000
BMW $2,276,200
Australia Cup $1,005,000
Caulfield Cup $2,650,000
That’s $20,725,200 ave $2,960,742 per race if im correct
Now your super star Frankel, what has he won on average???
That’s right a mere $198,000 per win
i told you Mr wikipedia, that site will be your downfall
When: 27 Jun 12 01:28
Joined:
Date Joined: 12 Oct 09
| Topic/replies: 3,109 | Blogger: ima_mazed66's blog
As for prize money, Black Caviar had won 22 races and averages £177,906 a win as opposed to Frankel's 11 wins averaging £151,857, so not really a massive difference especially when you consider BC won £283k compared to Frankel's £198k for their RA wins. Incidentally, BC has only won more than that £283k in about 5 of her 22 races and one of those was the same race twice.
Imamug66 there you go showing your intelligence regarding Australian horse racing and prize money, IT’S A COMMON FACT !! to even a MUG punter that sprinters in Australia race for less money than horses who can run further. Another bit of eductation for you.
Doncaster $2,011,500,
Cox plate $3,050,000
Golden Slipper $3,532,500
Melbourne Cup $6,200,000
BMW $2,276,200
Australia Cup $1,005,000
Caulfield Cup $2,650,000
That’s $20,725,200 ave $2,960,742 per race if im correct
Now your super star Frankel, what has he won on average???
That’s right a mere $198,000 per win
i told you Mr wikipedia, that site will be your downfall
As for prize money, Black Caviar had won 22 races and averages £177,906 a win as opposed to Frankel's 11 wins averaging £151,857, so not really a massive difference especially when you consider BC won £283k compared to Frankel's £198k for their RA wins. Incidentally, BC has only won more than that £283k in about 5 of her 22 races and one of those was the same race twice.
Exactly. Which begs the question, why did Frankel choose the race with the lowest prize money, given that there other races worth more, on trips that he was supposedly targetting, and would supposedly be just as dominant?
Exactly. Which begs the question, why did Frankel choose the race with the lowest prize money, given that there other races worth more, on trips that he was supposedly targetting, and would supposedly be just as dominant?
Why doesn't Frankel come and race in the 2040m Cox Plate worth 3 million, and near DOUBLE his prize money with a dominant win in only 1 race?
Think you will find if you compare Frankels race and adjust it to 10f, he would certainly not have been dominant against SYT. I think you actually find he loses that race.
Think you will find if you compare Frankels race and adjust it to 10f, he would certainly not have been dominant against SYT. I think you actually find he loses that race.
Would cost more to insure Franky for the trip than the prize money BJT
Think you will find if you compare Frankels race and adjust it to 10f, he would certainly not have been dominant against SYT. I think you actually find he loses that race.
Check the going and race times. Frankel loses that race. either that or duntle is near frankel. he ran on an 8.3+ track. syt on a 7.7+ track and frankel loses even considering frankel continuing 8f speed. numbers dont lie.
i see frankel has again avoided SYT and the older horses, this time the eclipse.
cecil says, "Frankel will tell me when he is ready to run 10f"
cecil says, "Frankel will tell me when he is ready to run 10f"
Frankel ran on good/soft???
Whats wrong with you lot! SYT is officially rated at least 15lb below Frankel you numpties
Whats wrong with you lot!
SYT is officially rated at least 15lb below Frankel you numpties
frankel ran on a track rated 8.3 6 hours before his race. the mean figure for good tracks is 8.0. frankel ran on a good-good to firm track. look it up "numpty"..
frankels track was 8.3+. syt was 7.7. duntle was 8.8 and ran within . 05 secs of frankel. "numpty"
Excelebration is rated one of the best horses in the world right now. Frankel is rated the best horse in history by many after beating that field by 11 lengths?
He won in a time of 1:37.85 seconds.
The going was listed as Good to Soft. So many believe the going was on the soft side. Even considering this was raised to Good, 30 minutes after his race.
Now the actual going stick measurement for the middle of the course on the day Frankel ran, was 8.3. Now the statistics provided in regards to course going suggest a different opinion.
OFFICIAL GOING DESCRIPTION GIVEN BY CLERK OF COURSE - FLAT NUMBER OF REPORTS LOGGED MEAN GOINGSTICK READING
HEAVY 68 5.5
SOFT 258 6.4
GOOD TO SOFT 581 7.1
GOOD 1165 8.0
GOOD TO FIRM 1538 8.9
FIRM 150 10.1
HARD 0 N/A
The mean recording for meetings classed as GOOD, is actually 8. Now Frankel, 6 hours before his race was 8.3 suggesting the ground was actually GOOD-GOOD TO FIRM, but definately on the upside of Good, and only 1 runner having run on the ground before him.
So what does this mean?
Well, from my reckoning, it means this. With a rating of 8.9 the following day, a 3 year old mare in her 4th start ran the same distance, to within .05 seconds of the greatest performance in history. How could this be? Obviously, that .6 difference in going equates to a huge margin in time. A horse in her 4th start couldn't possibly get within 15 lengths of the greatest victory ever recorded? Well, lets say 10. Lets say, that Duntle ran out of her skin and would have beaten the field that Frankel did, by a length. Longer? Read through first.
Stats behind Frankels awe inspiring performance.
Time, 1:37.85, running 16.446 metres per second. Track rating >8.3
Now considering the staggering performance of Frankel, and the newly decided best racehorse in the history of the world, based purely on that run, it would be impossible to think he could keep that speed up for an extra 2 furlongs. But lets entertain the idea.
That puts the equivalent time Frankel ran on an 8.3+ track for 10 furlongs to 2:02.32.
Now the other way, Frankel vs Duntle, Frankel obviously has an allowance of 24 metres given the 10 lengths.
So You Think, ran 2:03.86, 16.247 metres per second. Track rating >7.7.
1.5 seconds behind Frankels extended 8f time. At So You Thinks speed of 16.241 metres per second, and given the extra distance, he should have an allowance of 1.25*10 lengths, or 12.5 lengths (.6 in going) or around 37.5 metres, or around 2.308 seconds which puts him .8 seconds above Frankels performance, even allowing Frankels average speed to continue for an extra 2 furlongs.
Or am I reading the going stick wrong? Which would make a lot of sense given the severe lack of information for English racing.
Or is Duntle further behind Frankel? Which would indeed put Frankel further behind SYT based on those figures.
Ascot track conditions
Report Date Tuesday 19th June; 8:30 am
Going Good to Soft
Going Stick Standside: 8.1, Centre: 8.3, Farside: 8.1, Round: 7.4
Ascot track conditions
Report Date Wednesday 20th June; 12:00 pm
Going Good
GoingStick Standside: 8.7, Centre: 8.9, Farside: 8.8, Round: 7.7
He won in a time of 1:37.85 seconds.
The going was listed as Good to Soft. So many believe the going was on the soft side. Even considering this was raised to Good, 30 minutes after his race.
Now the actual going stick measurement for the middle of the course on the day Frankel ran, was 8.3. Now the statistics provided in regards to course going suggest a different opinion.
OFFICIAL GOING DESCRIPTION GIVEN BY CLERK OF COURSE - FLAT NUMBER OF REPORTS LOGGED MEAN GOINGSTICK READING
HEAVY 68 5.5
SOFT 258 6.4
GOOD TO SOFT 581 7.1
GOOD 1165 8.0
GOOD TO FIRM 1538 8.9
FIRM 150 10.1
HARD 0 N/A
The mean recording for meetings classed as GOOD, is actually 8. Now Frankel, 6 hours before his race was 8.3 suggesting the ground was actually GOOD-GOOD TO FIRM, but definately on the upside of Good, and only 1 runner having run on the ground before him.
So what does this mean?
Well, from my reckoning, it means this. With a rating of 8.9 the following day, a 3 year old mare in her 4th start ran the same distance, to within .05 seconds of the greatest performance in history. How could this be? Obviously, that .6 difference in going equates to a huge margin in time. A horse in her 4th start couldn't possibly get within 15 lengths of the greatest victory ever recorded? Well, lets say 10. Lets say, that Duntle ran out of her skin and would have beaten the field that Frankel did, by a length. Longer? Read through first.
Stats behind Frankels awe inspiring performance.
Time, 1:37.85, running 16.446 metres per second. Track rating >8.3
Now considering the staggering performance of Frankel, and the newly decided best racehorse in the history of the world, based purely on that run, it would be impossible to think he could keep that speed up for an extra 2 furlongs. But lets entertain the idea.
That puts the equivalent time Frankel ran on an 8.3+ track for 10 furlongs to 2:02.32.
Now the other way, Frankel vs Duntle, Frankel obviously has an allowance of 24 metres given the 10 lengths.
So You Think, ran 2:03.86, 16.247 metres per second. Track rating >7.7.
1.5 seconds behind Frankels extended 8f time. At So You Thinks speed of 16.241 metres per second, and given the extra distance, he should have an allowance of 1.25*10 lengths, or 12.5 lengths (.6 in going) or around 37.5 metres, or around 2.308 seconds which puts him .8 seconds above Frankels performance, even allowing Frankels average speed to continue for an extra 2 furlongs.
Or am I reading the going stick wrong? Which would make a lot of sense given the severe lack of information for English racing.
Or is Duntle further behind Frankel? Which would indeed put Frankel further behind SYT based on those figures.
Ascot track conditions
Report Date Tuesday 19th June; 8:30 am
Going Good to Soft
Going Stick Standside: 8.1, Centre: 8.3, Farside: 8.1, Round: 7.4
Ascot track conditions
Report Date Wednesday 20th June; 12:00 pm
Going Good
GoingStick Standside: 8.7, Centre: 8.9, Farside: 8.8, Round: 7.7
Or is Duntle further behind Frankel? Which would indeed put Frankel further behind SYT based on those figures.
BJT
On the tuesday when Frankel won the Queen Anne only he recorded a time faster than average on the days card. Think about it.
On the wednesday when Duntle won the Sandringham and So You Think won the Prince of Wales all 6 races on that card where recorded as faster than average. Think about it.
On the tuesday when Frankel won the Queen Anne only he recorded a time faster than average on the days card. Think about it.
On the wednesday when Duntle won the Sandringham and So You Think won the Prince of Wales all 6 races on that card where recorded as faster than average. Think about it.
Just to add you cant accurately judge conditions by the `going stick` as ground can ride dead and sticky without any registration to emphasis on this.
Our OR ratings are nearly always there or there abouts. The gulf between SYT is over a stone at least. Duntle..may i say no more. Good luck with your paralysis by over analysis
Our OR ratings are nearly always there or there abouts. The gulf between SYT is over a stone at least. Duntle
..may i say no more. Good luck with your paralysis by over analysis
the scraping noise surely must be irritating you by now Megsy!None of the horse Frankel left in his wake got close to an average time Megsy!!!
The fact that this thread was even created,just shows that the aussies are absolutely seething that their mare has been found out
Europe knows this after last week and i makes me very pleased that the aussies now know it too and creating this thread has proved that thanks guys
Europe knows this after last week and i makes me very pleased that the aussies now know it too and creating this thread has proved that
thanks guys
BJT reminds me of this lad i know. He has a form of Aspergers syndrome. He can remember every actors name in all the movies he has seen but he does not have the understanding to follow the plot.
Here's an idea... Frankel could actually race So You Think and prove all the ratings smarties right or wrong...
Of course that would be too difficult... So You Think having only run in every @#$%ing middle distance race of note past two years.
All you seethers, now you've found your answer for why Sir Henry has kept Frankel at a mile for so long!
Obviously he is waiting patiently for So You Think imminent retirement!
Of course that would be too difficult... So You Think having only run in every @#$%ing middle distance race of note past two years.
All you seethers, now you've found your answer for why Sir Henry has kept Frankel at a mile for so long!
Obviously he is waiting patiently for So You Think imminent retirement!
There was only 1 race over a mile on day 2. So you think won it on a track rated minimum .6 worse ground than frankels race. can say whatever you like about the times that day but the reality is there was only 1 race on the good to soft to compare with frankel running on good to firm. next
AdvantageAussie as i said earlier, cecil says, "Frankel will tell me when he is ready to run 10f" ...ffs
One thing about Aussies, biggest mouths in the world, even above Americans, not the brightest people though.
Even Moody stated that Frankels performance in the Queen Anne was the greatest performance he had ever seen by a horse.
These Aussies on here no nothing about horse racing. When will they have some success in the Breeders Cup? We are waiting for one of your wonder horses!! Where are they!!
These Aussies on here no nothing about horse racing. When will they have some success in the Breeders Cup? We are waiting for one of your wonder horses!! Where are they!!
Black Caviar never got beat 22 straight
England (Footi) last won anything 1966 World Cup ...46 years ago More than 49% Of the population today wasn't even born when Bobby Moore lifted the trophy
Thats the difference
England (Footi) last won anything 1966 World Cup ...46 years ago More than 49% Of the population today wasn't even born when Bobby Moore lifted the trophy
Thats the difference
Forgot how good the aussies are at 'football'..not
To win the World Cup at footy you need to beat the best teams in the world.
Black Caviar has only raced against 2nd division opposition.
Black Caviar has only raced against 2nd division opposition.
Angel Gabriel what Div are you in B/C prize money is over million 4 ... stud fees dont ask .
Black Caviar is a good handicapper which is all you need to be to dominate in Australia.
As for stud fees are you sure she will be fertile. She is very manly. Big ugly thing.
As for stud fees are you sure she will be fertile. She is very manly. Big ugly thing.
ColeWorldNoBlanket - Forgot how good the aussies are at 'football'..not
I believe the last time Australia and England met in "football" the result was?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiO6cK4XUuI
talk about foot in mouth disease PMSL
The really sad part is... you guys try so @#$%ing hard to be good at football, but your so @#$%ing bad it's quite funny!
I believe the last time Australia and England met in "football" the result was?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiO6cK4XUuI
talk about foot in mouth disease PMSL
The really sad part is... you guys try so @#$%ing hard to be good at football, but your so @#$%ing bad it's quite funny!
FFS mugsy surely you are on a wind up as nobody could genuinely display your level or stupidity as a natural talent.
So ****ing what if sprinters race for less money in Australia, isn't Black Caviar a sprinter you fcuking idiot? Give Moody a call then and tell him to run her in the Melbourne Cup as it pays more and then get back to me with what he replies.
See unlike you, I address the specific points being made by the person making them and not just make up any old b0ll0cks or totally unrelated points. That way I don't get myself in such a mess like you do and end up not even knowing what points I am making. I was responding directly to a point about Black Caviar and the supposedly low prize money here in the UK, so the fact that races like the Melbourne Cup paying more over there has about as much relevance to BC as saying the Arc or Champion Stakes pays more than the Jubilee so why doesn't she run in those?
Do yourself a favour like I keep telling you, print out what I say and then ask someone to explain it to you in bite sized pieces because trying to comprehend it by yourself is clearly far too big a job for you.
And like I keep telling you, you can't educate me on something I already know and I already knew races like the MC, Cox Plate and some of the others were more valuable than the sprints but when it's totally irrelevant to the line of argument, there really is no need to cover it, otherwise I may just have well equally pointlessly have responded by saying the Derby is worth more than the Jubilee so why didn't BC go for that? And yes I do know all of the exact reasons why she didn't and that's what makes it so irrelevant. Presumably though you had all of those race prize money figures stored from memory and didn't have to look them up right, on Wiki or anywhere else for that matter? You have trouble retaining information at the best of times so don't try to give it any bullsh1t eh?
By the way, how many times has Black Caviar won those races you so pointlessly listed? Oh and in case you, sorry when you are too stupid to realise that was a rhetorical question, (go and ask someone else what that means) I'll point out that you totally wasted you time even bothering to make that last post because it was completely irrelevant to the subject........but then again, imagine you getting things @rse about face, what a turn that was eh?
So ****ing what if sprinters race for less money in Australia, isn't Black Caviar a sprinter you fcuking idiot? Give Moody a call then and tell him to run her in the Melbourne Cup as it pays more and then get back to me with what he replies.
See unlike you, I address the specific points being made by the person making them and not just make up any old b0ll0cks or totally unrelated points. That way I don't get myself in such a mess like you do and end up not even knowing what points I am making. I was responding directly to a point about Black Caviar and the supposedly low prize money here in the UK, so the fact that races like the Melbourne Cup paying more over there has about as much relevance to BC as saying the Arc or Champion Stakes pays more than the Jubilee so why doesn't she run in those?
Do yourself a favour like I keep telling you, print out what I say and then ask someone to explain it to you in bite sized pieces because trying to comprehend it by yourself is clearly far too big a job for you.
And like I keep telling you, you can't educate me on something I already know and I already knew races like the MC, Cox Plate and some of the others were more valuable than the sprints but when it's totally irrelevant to the line of argument, there really is no need to cover it, otherwise I may just have well equally pointlessly have responded by saying the Derby is worth more than the Jubilee so why didn't BC go for that? And yes I do know all of the exact reasons why she didn't and that's what makes it so irrelevant. Presumably though you had all of those race prize money figures stored from memory and didn't have to look them up right, on Wiki or anywhere else for that matter? You have trouble retaining information at the best of times so don't try to give it any bullsh1t eh?
By the way, how many times has Black Caviar won those races you so pointlessly listed? Oh and in case you, sorry when you are too stupid to realise that was a rhetorical question, (go and ask someone else what that means) I'll point out that you totally wasted you time even bothering to make that last post because it was completely irrelevant to the subject........but then again, imagine you getting things @rse about face, what a turn that was eh?
I believe the last time Australia and England met in "football" the result was?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiO6cK4XUuI
talk about foot in mouth disease PMSL
The really sad part is... you guys try so @#$%ing hard to be good at football, but your so @#$%ing bad it's quite funny!
One game makes you better than another team lol? Rankings dont lie (ask Frankel)
England 6th: 1 world Cup
Australia 24th: nothing
Angel one last one from the zip..no i dont know is she is fertile, ugly or not, its £300 grand to find out.Are you on .
I spent time in Australia. Now re realising just how thick they are!
Keep relying on ratings... just like Frankel...
Ratings mean nothing if your too chicken to back it up on the pitch or racetrack.
Frankel has had plenty of chances to race an 10f, yet they keep him to a mile because they are afraid he will bottle it, just like the English FootBall team.
Ratings mean nothing if your too chicken to back it up on the pitch or racetrack.
Frankel has had plenty of chances to race an 10f, yet they keep him to a mile because they are afraid he will bottle it, just like the English FootBall team.
Angel, if you want a three way, I'm sure Frankel would be quite happy to join you and black caviar... but I'm not so sure you will come out of the experience a happy customer! 
Must admit, don't know much about soccer...or England, but did see their last game. Goodness!
Saw the movie ZULU a long time ago...good to see something "good" came out of it all
for the Old Dart many years on
Saw the movie ZULU a long time ago...good to see something "good" came out of it all
for the Old Dart many years on
AdvatageAussie you are spot on re rating
it goes something like this Mickey Mouse rated 138 Donald Duck 121
Donald Duck blows Mickey Mouse off the track
the assessors now make Donald Duck a higher rating than Mickey Mouse
Ratings before the race are a guess from the assessors & have no relation to whats going to happen in the race
it goes something like this Mickey Mouse rated 138 Donald Duck 121
Donald Duck blows Mickey Mouse off the track
the assessors now make Donald Duck a higher rating than Mickey Mouse
Ratings before the race are a guess from the assessors & have no relation to whats going to happen in the race
The English football team is a running joke really, even with the fans. We dont really get upset anymore!!
But at least we have quality racehorses.
But at least we have quality racehorses.
Zipper
Is that how you think ratings work
No wonder all your horses are overrated.
Is that how you think ratings work
No wonder all your horses are overrated.
If the BHB handicapers were that good why would they work for the BHB on an average wage ?
They could sit at home in their pyjamas & win fortunes on Betfair ..
They could sit at home in their pyjamas & win fortunes on Betfair ..
Angel loads of horses are over rated why the Handicapper know a lot of trainers are at it
The form is there for all to see. If it wasnt them doing the job it would another.
On the flip side, if they where so far off the mark they why arent they rumbled all the time? Of course we need form lines where horses are running against each other and with the Australian/UK connection it can be ambiguous the gulf in class.
Yet we can only go on what we see. Black Caviar struggled to stay the 6 furlong at Ascot and is on what we saw, no better than a 120 rated animal. Over 5 furlongs i think she would be much better.
On the flip side, if they where so far off the mark they why arent they rumbled all the time? Of course we need form lines where horses are running against each other and with the Australian/UK connection it can be ambiguous the gulf in class.
Yet we can only go on what we see. Black Caviar struggled to stay the 6 furlong at Ascot and is on what we saw, no better than a 120 rated animal. Over 5 furlongs i think she would be much better.
And yet I wonder what would happen if you take the ratings of all the Aussie horses since Choisir blazed a trail and won your king stand stakes starting at 25-1
I suspect in the majority of cases, aussie horses have lived up to there rating and more.
One things for certain, while we recieve plenty of bagging on forums... English loud mouths are much quieter when reaching for their wallets. We haven't seen anything like Choisir's 25-1 since! LOL
I suspect in the majority of cases, aussie horses have lived up to there rating and more.
One things for certain, while we recieve plenty of bagging on forums... English loud mouths are much quieter when reaching for their wallets. We haven't seen anything like Choisir's 25-1 since! LOL
Yep Choisir was more impressive than than Black Caviar., but he ran over the correct trip of 5f.
Black Caviar should have done the same, but unfortunately Moody had been gobbing off that the horse was not just an out and out sprinter which she evidently is. Moody was trying to draw the gap between Frankel over a mile. She probably could still win in Australia at 7f but not in Europe. She would get mullered by horses rated less than 120.
Black Caviar should have done the same, but unfortunately Moody had been gobbing off that the horse was not just an out and out sprinter which she evidently is. Moody was trying to draw the gap between Frankel over a mile. She probably could still win in Australia at 7f but not in Europe. She would get mullered by horses rated less than 120.
i will repeat again immamug66, and dont throw your answer left field with insults re black caviar is a sprinter....is Frankel a sprinter too?? when comparance to prize money.
no he fcuking isnt you deadset moron.yeah i can throw the insults too. 8-10f horses in australia run for higher purses.
ima_mazed66
When: 27 Jun 12 01:28
Joined:
Date Joined: 12 Oct 09
| Topic/replies: 3,109 | Blogger: ima_mazed66's blog
As for prize money, Black Caviar had won 22 races and averages £177,906 a win as opposed to Frankel's 11 wins averaging £151,857, so not really a massive difference especially when you consider BC won £283k compared to Frankel's £198k for their RA wins. Incidentally, BC has only won more than that £283k in about 5 of her 22 races and one of those was the same race twice.Imamug66 there you go showing your intelligence regarding Australian horse racing and prize money, IT’S A COMMON FACT !! to even a MUG punter that sprinters in Australia race for less money than horses who can run further. Another bit of eductation for you.
Doncaster $2,011,500,
Cox plate $3,050,000
Golden Slipper $3,532,500
Melbourne Cup $6,200,000
BMW $2,276,200
Australia Cup $1,005,000
Caulfield Cup $2,650,000
That’s $20,725,200 ave $2,960,742 per race if im correct
Now your super star Frankel, what has he won on average???
That’s right a mere( £ 198000 = $ 307,743 ) per win
i told you Mr wikipedia, that site will be your downfall
no he fcuking isnt you deadset moron.yeah i can throw the insults too. 8-10f horses in australia run for higher purses.
ima_mazed66
When: 27 Jun 12 01:28
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As for prize money, Black Caviar had won 22 races and averages £177,906 a win as opposed to Frankel's 11 wins averaging £151,857, so not really a massive difference especially when you consider BC won £283k compared to Frankel's £198k for their RA wins. Incidentally, BC has only won more than that £283k in about 5 of her 22 races and one of those was the same race twice.Imamug66 there you go showing your intelligence regarding Australian horse racing and prize money, IT’S A COMMON FACT !! to even a MUG punter that sprinters in Australia race for less money than horses who can run further. Another bit of eductation for you.
Doncaster $2,011,500,
Cox plate $3,050,000
Golden Slipper $3,532,500
Melbourne Cup $6,200,000
BMW $2,276,200
Australia Cup $1,005,000
Caulfield Cup $2,650,000
That’s $20,725,200 ave $2,960,742 per race if im correct
Now your super star Frankel, what has he won on average???
That’s right a mere( £ 198000 = $ 307,743 ) per win
i told you Mr wikipedia, that site will be your downfall
The difference is megsy..........Frankel CAN sprint and would destroy any other horse on the planet at the moment.........even a quarter horse.Sub 9 second furlongs on his workouts being the norm since he was 18 months old.hth
Btw and he can still do it and sustain it over 5.6 7 and further if he was ever asked.
Btw and he can still do it and sustain it over 5.6 7 and further if he was ever asked.
Angel Gabriel
Date Joined: 09 May 05 Add contact | Send message
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Yep Choisir was more impressive than than Black Caviar., but he ran over the correct trip of 5f.
Choisir also ran and won the golden jubilee 6f after winning the kind stand 5f
Date Joined: 09 May 05 Add contact | Send message
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Yep Choisir was more impressive than than Black Caviar., but he ran over the correct trip of 5f.
Choisir also ran and won the golden jubilee 6f after winning the kind stand 5f
GT...the difference is your middle distance horses also run for a higher prize money than sprinters, fcukwit immamug whats to argue to suit his stupidity.
What was the name of your sprinter that someone said could give 5l to the field at RA and mentioned Hay List in the same paragraph megsy?
so ou thinks last 3 starts in australia as a middle distance runner, look at the purses. purses trainers of sprinters would dream of.
26 weeks
3-23 FLEM
02-Nov-10 3200M Slow6 (MELB CUP G1) No age restriction Hcp Limit 49.0 $6,175,000 ($450,000) Steven Arnold (2) 56.0 Rtg:124 1st AMERICAIN (USA) 54.5: 2nd MALUCKYDAY (NZ) 51.0: 3-26.87, Margin 3.3L 7th at 1200m, 6th at 800m, 3rd at 400m, Betting $3.10/$3F. Pulled hard throughout.
1-12 FLEM
30-Oct-10 2000M Dead4 (MACKINNON G1) No age restriction WFA $1,002,500 Steven Arnold (8) 58.0 Rtg:122 2nd DESCARADO (NZ) 58.0: 3rd GINGA DUDE (NZ) 59.0: 2-4.92, Margin 3.8L 4th at 1200m, 4th at 800m, 3rd at 400m, Betting $1.65/$1.60/$1.60F.
1-10 M V
23-Oct-10 2040M Dead4 (COX PLATE G1) 3YO & Up WFA $3,050,000 ($1,850,000) Steven Arnold (5) 57.5 2nd ZIPPING 59.0: 3rd WHOBEGOTYOU 59.0: 2-7.45, Margin 1.3L 2nd at 1200m, 2nd at 800m, 1st at 400m, Betting $1.45/$1.50F.
26 weeks
3-23 FLEM
02-Nov-10 3200M Slow6 (MELB CUP G1) No age restriction Hcp Limit 49.0 $6,175,000 ($450,000) Steven Arnold (2) 56.0 Rtg:124 1st AMERICAIN (USA) 54.5: 2nd MALUCKYDAY (NZ) 51.0: 3-26.87, Margin 3.3L 7th at 1200m, 6th at 800m, 3rd at 400m, Betting $3.10/$3F. Pulled hard throughout.
1-12 FLEM
30-Oct-10 2000M Dead4 (MACKINNON G1) No age restriction WFA $1,002,500 Steven Arnold (8) 58.0 Rtg:122 2nd DESCARADO (NZ) 58.0: 3rd GINGA DUDE (NZ) 59.0: 2-4.92, Margin 3.8L 4th at 1200m, 4th at 800m, 3rd at 400m, Betting $1.65/$1.60/$1.60F.
1-10 M V
23-Oct-10 2040M Dead4 (COX PLATE G1) 3YO & Up WFA $3,050,000 ($1,850,000) Steven Arnold (5) 57.5 2nd ZIPPING 59.0: 3rd WHOBEGOTYOU 59.0: 2-7.45, Margin 1.3L 2nd at 1200m, 2nd at 800m, 1st at 400m, Betting $1.45/$1.50F.
GT...mate my only interest at this moment is prize money,since imamug boasts how little Black Caviar
s purses are, not who BC beat, thats been well and truely dusted.
s purses are, not who BC beat, thats been well and truely dusted.
You can throw as many insults at me as you like mugsy and have done and was the first to do so but it's water off a duck's back to me and would be like Luke Nolen telling me I had a brain fade. Please try, just give it your best shot and have a go at following how the topics went and you might now see why your subsequent post was totally irrelevant.
The initial statement from No_BS was:
Didn't know we used ratings, we certainly don't put any credibility in your's.
We judge by wins and prize money and she has both, when the Cotton Wool Kid decides to play with the other horse instead of just his own then we will see.
Read that back to yourself a couple of times, especially the bold part until it sinks in and then take a few deep breaths, do a few neck rolls and stretches and make sure you are well and truly psyched up for this next part that I am about to copy and paste, because it still means exactly the same today as it did when I first posted it.
The cut & paste part:
As for prize money, Black Caviar had won 22 races and averages £177,906 a win as opposed to Frankel's 11 wins averaging £151,857, so not really a massive difference especially when you consider BC won £283k compared to Frankel's £198k for their RA wins. Incidentally, BC has only won more than that £283k in about 5 of her 22 races and one of those was the same race twice.
What part of that was too taxing for you to understand? You then go spouting off about races like the Melbourne Cup being worth $6m+ in total and the value of other such races, all of which is irrelevant to Black Caviar seeing as she will never run in those races. Frankel's Queen Anne win was only worth £198k (and that's the figure for that race alone and not the average of his races won by the way) but there is little point in me pointing out any races that have more prize money in respects to him if he was never going to race in them, is there?
You also make the schoolboy error of listing the total prize money and come up with two different formulas by saying:
That’s $20,725,200 ave $2,960,742 per race if im correct
Now your super star Frankel, what has he won on average???
That’s right a mere( £ 198000 = $ 307,743 ) per win
Now unless the winners of those races you list like the Melbourne Cup get every penny of the $6,200,000 (which they don't) then all of your other numbers after that become totally meaningless unless you also add up the total prize money in all races that Frankel has run in. Have you done that?
Apart from anything else though, you are comparing apples with oranges by picking some of the highest prize money races in Australia to get an average and then comparing it to Frankel's races and the prize money he has won, where the two thing don't even have any correlation and it's not as if too many Aussie horses make their debuts in those races without having run at a lower level first, which would affect their average prize money won, just as Frankel ran in a maiden and a conditions race to begin with. So you are trying to compare an average from some cherry picked races to one in a horse's actual racing career.
A closer equivalent would be to list top prize money races in England like the Derby, King George, International Stakes, Champion Stakes, QEll, St Leger and so on but very few horses will run in all of those and certainly not Frankel and so you would get a fictional average rather than an actual career race one anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if Camelot has a better average win prize money than Frankel despite running fewer races and Workforce definitely will have based on the types of races both horses won and whilst you say sprints aren't the most valuable races over there, neither are mile races here but they are the only types we can sensibly make comment on in relation to Black Caviar and Frankel.
I'm still wanting to reply to the BC injury thing too but you keep piping up with irrelevant sh1t that I don't want to paste a whole wall of text in one go.
The initial statement from No_BS was:
Didn't know we used ratings, we certainly don't put any credibility in your's.
We judge by wins and prize money and she has both, when the Cotton Wool Kid decides to play with the other horse instead of just his own then we will see.
Read that back to yourself a couple of times, especially the bold part until it sinks in and then take a few deep breaths, do a few neck rolls and stretches and make sure you are well and truly psyched up for this next part that I am about to copy and paste, because it still means exactly the same today as it did when I first posted it.
The cut & paste part:
As for prize money, Black Caviar had won 22 races and averages £177,906 a win as opposed to Frankel's 11 wins averaging £151,857, so not really a massive difference especially when you consider BC won £283k compared to Frankel's £198k for their RA wins. Incidentally, BC has only won more than that £283k in about 5 of her 22 races and one of those was the same race twice.
What part of that was too taxing for you to understand? You then go spouting off about races like the Melbourne Cup being worth $6m+ in total and the value of other such races, all of which is irrelevant to Black Caviar seeing as she will never run in those races. Frankel's Queen Anne win was only worth £198k (and that's the figure for that race alone and not the average of his races won by the way) but there is little point in me pointing out any races that have more prize money in respects to him if he was never going to race in them, is there?
You also make the schoolboy error of listing the total prize money and come up with two different formulas by saying:
That’s $20,725,200 ave $2,960,742 per race if im correct
Now your super star Frankel, what has he won on average???
That’s right a mere( £ 198000 = $ 307,743 ) per win
Now unless the winners of those races you list like the Melbourne Cup get every penny of the $6,200,000 (which they don't) then all of your other numbers after that become totally meaningless unless you also add up the total prize money in all races that Frankel has run in. Have you done that?
Apart from anything else though, you are comparing apples with oranges by picking some of the highest prize money races in Australia to get an average and then comparing it to Frankel's races and the prize money he has won, where the two thing don't even have any correlation and it's not as if too many Aussie horses make their debuts in those races without having run at a lower level first, which would affect their average prize money won, just as Frankel ran in a maiden and a conditions race to begin with. So you are trying to compare an average from some cherry picked races to one in a horse's actual racing career.
A closer equivalent would be to list top prize money races in England like the Derby, King George, International Stakes, Champion Stakes, QEll, St Leger and so on but very few horses will run in all of those and certainly not Frankel and so you would get a fictional average rather than an actual career race one anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if Camelot has a better average win prize money than Frankel despite running fewer races and Workforce definitely will have based on the types of races both horses won and whilst you say sprints aren't the most valuable races over there, neither are mile races here but they are the only types we can sensibly make comment on in relation to Black Caviar and Frankel.
I'm still wanting to reply to the BC injury thing too but you keep piping up with irrelevant sh1t that I don't want to paste a whole wall of text in one go.
Matters not ima.......prizemoney at the level of Frankel and co in Europe is insignificant when stud value is considered.£100,000,000 is an underestimate of Frankels value in finacial terms.........at least £70k to £100k per covering.
BC can have only one foal per covering season and no sane breeder will pay much for her first born.
BC can have only one foal per covering season and no sane breeder will pay much for her first born.
Yep that's all true too GT and was in part what I was saying elsewhere when the question was asked why had no other horse had 22 wins from 22 before (even though that's not true anyway) and although obviously a great achievement, the fact BC is a mare and has even been kept in training for 22 races and as a 5-6 year old and is a sprinter too are all factors but the main one being there is no rush to go to stud with mares like there is with male horses.
You forgot to mention they had too keep her running for the prize money.Regardless of 22 from 22 anyone with any sense knew she was decent but nowhere near the best ever sprinter seen.
At least 20 or 30 UK sprinters from the 70s on would have destroyed her.......including handicappers like Chaplins Club etc.Soba and Dayjur would have eaten her for lunch and still been hungry.
At least 20 or 30 UK sprinters from the 70s on would have destroyed her.......including handicappers like Chaplins Club etc.Soba and Dayjur would have eaten her for lunch and still been hungry.
IMA, while you do raise some pretty relevant points, why is it that comparing races on the same card, Frankel chooses to race in the lower prize money races. The horse has been declared basically the best horse in the world and has a range of 7f to 12f. Why then, would it not choose to run in a 10f race worth 50% more prize money. Forget about the biggest races in different countries, this is a race that it was entered in? declared he would have donkey licked them, yet chose to race for 66% the prize money.
Why?
There is no valid reason. And there is no reason to say the owners are that rich they don't need the money, or he is worth so much at stud, or any other bullshit. Name one valid reason. If the first two were so important, he would already be at stud. He is making less racing, and is certainly not improving real race watchers opinion of him by dodging any good horse and racing for peanuts.
As for BC, it would be hard to imagine how you can claim 20-30 UK sprinters, in the space of 40+ years, would only be good enough to beat a mare running uphill with a stage 2 and a stage 4 tear in her hind leg muscles.
Only 20-30 of your horses could have beaten her under those conditions? That is certainly not something that can be bragged about.
Why?
There is no valid reason. And there is no reason to say the owners are that rich they don't need the money, or he is worth so much at stud, or any other bullshit. Name one valid reason. If the first two were so important, he would already be at stud. He is making less racing, and is certainly not improving real race watchers opinion of him by dodging any good horse and racing for peanuts.
As for BC, it would be hard to imagine how you can claim 20-30 UK sprinters, in the space of 40+ years, would only be good enough to beat a mare running uphill with a stage 2 and a stage 4 tear in her hind leg muscles.
Only 20-30 of your horses could have beaten her under those conditions? That is certainly not something that can be bragged about.
BJT
I think it has been a settling process with Frankel. He was very headstrong as a younger horse and has gradually settled in his racing. This has been the education which trainer and jockey have had to instil in the horse. Of course connections are overly cautious with Frankel but its been a gradualisation of education in a way. Our trainers are probably more professional than yours which is perhaps why we have more success on a global scale, and obviously our horses are more superior in class.
I think it has been a settling process with Frankel. He was very headstrong as a younger horse and has gradually settled in his racing. This has been the education which trainer and jockey have had to instil in the horse. Of course connections are overly cautious with Frankel but its been a gradualisation of education in a way. Our trainers are probably more professional than yours which is perhaps why we have more success on a global scale, and obviously our horses are more superior in class.
Just to paint the picture for you sorry, because he has been headstrong they have avoided 10f until they are confident he is consistently relaxed in his races from now on. He will be running over 10f in the Juddmonte International at York 22nd August so watch this space, lets see if So You Think holds his ground.
Around Juddmonte time, So You Think will be well on his way back to Australia... I heard he has quite a few dates lined up.
He has been around NH a while now running in every middle distance race possible... they probably overdid it.. really? Arc, Breeders, Dubai all on three different surfaces ffs...
If only Frankel's connections where as brave.
He has been around NH a while now running in every middle distance race possible... they probably overdid it.. really? Arc, Breeders, Dubai all on three different surfaces ffs...
If only Frankel's connections where as brave.
I actually agree with you about Frankel not being tested enough.
He should be in the Eclipse at Sandown over 10F. That would be what the public want. Henry Cecil actually annoys me with how defensive he is with the horse. Top horses need to be tested.
He should be in the Eclipse at Sandown over 10F. That would be what the public want. Henry Cecil actually annoys me with how defensive he is with the horse. Top horses need to be tested.
Angel Gabriel
27 Jun 12 19:00
Joined:
09 May 05
| Topic/replies: 5,553 | Blogger: Angel Gabriel's blog
The form is there for all to see. If it wasnt them doing the job it would another.
On the flip side, if they where so far off the mark they why arent they rumbled all the time? Of course we need form lines where horses are running against each other and with the Australian/UK connection it can be ambiguous the gulf in class.
Yet we can only go on what we see. Black Caviar struggled to stay the 6 furlong at Ascot and is on what we saw, no better than a 120 rated animal. Over 5 furlongs i think she would be much better.
Indeed.
& Septimus & Yeats have been two of the worst performed horses sent to Australia to race.
Impossible to think how Yeats could win a half decent race in the UK let alone multiple Gold Cups. Thought the staying ranks over ther were stronger than that. Obviously not.
put it in reverse, it would be like Frankel comming all the way out here for the Cox Plate, experiencing conditions he has never had to face before, like a day with plus 30 degree temperitures, resulting in him weakening in the straight and falling in to win my a head.
Of course aussie's would rubbish the horse and say he's overated, wasn't he supposed to win by 15 lengths? No wonder he's unbeaten, first time he's faced some real competition, UK horses obviously not very good, unfuriatingly forgetting all the good performances by UK horses half as good as Frankel in the Melbourne cup almost every year that proves otherwise.
Of course aussie's would rubbish the horse and say he's overated, wasn't he supposed to win by 15 lengths? No wonder he's unbeaten, first time he's faced some real competition, UK horses obviously not very good, unfuriatingly forgetting all the good performances by UK horses half as good as Frankel in the Melbourne cup almost every year that proves otherwise.
The Melbourne Cup is a stop start stop start handicap over 2 miles. Its not run in a normal manner, its an unusual race.Yeats missed the break and was even beaten by Land n Stars who was never in the same class as Yeats back home.
The problem you have with your argument is that our middle distance horses mop up in Americas Breeders Cup meeting. What do the Aussies ever win?
only your Prince of Wales and Eclipse... apparently not very strong races 
It seems like any time England or Ireland send a horse over for the Melbourne Cup, unless they are just handicappers they seem to automatically get top weight.
Yeats was given 9-4 and then 8-11 was the next highest weight in the field despite running in the race for the first time and had only won the Ascot Gold Cup once by then. Septimus was given 9-3 and then 8-9 was the next highest and again was running in the race for the first time and yet Makybe Diva in her first run was only given 8-0 and the 2 top weights that year had 8-10 and both were trained in England. Her 2nd win she still only had 8-11 and the top weight on 9-2 was Vinnie Roe, an Irish horse that finished 2nd beaten 1¼L giving away 5lbs and even the 3rd year she only had 9-2 and the same weight as Vinnie Roe again.
Yeats was also giving away around a stone to horses he had previously beaten in the Ascot GC and other Gr1 non-handicap cup races.
Yeats was given 9-4 and then 8-11 was the next highest weight in the field despite running in the race for the first time and had only won the Ascot Gold Cup once by then. Septimus was given 9-3 and then 8-9 was the next highest and again was running in the race for the first time and yet Makybe Diva in her first run was only given 8-0 and the 2 top weights that year had 8-10 and both were trained in England. Her 2nd win she still only had 8-11 and the top weight on 9-2 was Vinnie Roe, an Irish horse that finished 2nd beaten 1¼L giving away 5lbs and even the 3rd year she only had 9-2 and the same weight as Vinnie Roe again.
Yeats was also giving away around a stone to horses he had previously beaten in the Ascot GC and other Gr1 non-handicap cup races.
Without a doubt the Melbourne Cup is the most over rated flat race in the World.
Only in your head.......you lot under-rate it and in arrogance continue to bring out the wrong type of horses to win it. Many still do and still bring out dour plodding stayers, with no speed in their legs.
You generally need a horse that can sprint and stay to win a cup. Look what AOB did in arrogance thought he could outstay them and sent his 3 out at a ridiculous pace as if they were leading the peloton in the Tour De France.
The penny has only just dropped.
You generally need a horse that can sprint and stay to win a cup. Look what AOB did in arrogance thought he could outstay them and sent his 3 out at a ridiculous pace as if they were leading the peloton in the Tour De France.
The penny has only just dropped.
I agree that AOB was a fecking idiot to try that. Its a tough handicap to win. As i said its an unusual race, due to the tempo. I think you need a decent 11f horse who can stay a steady 16f but who can relax in the race.
I do cut him a bit of slack, because in the lead up, there was a lot of Media pressure about which one was going to be his pace maker, and would they take the race off him if he tried it, because that is banned here. So with the threat of the race being taken off him i think he decided to roll the 3 of them to the lead and try and make it a staying test.
In fairness it's a bit harsh to say we don't know the types of horse to bring over when Red Cadeaux was beaten a nose and only be a French horse/another European runner and so beat all of the Aussie runners where presumably their trainers do know the type of horse needed, unless they forget what it takes that year.
If you then factor in the year Shocking won it by ¾L when carrying 8-0 from the English based Crime Scene with that one carrying 8-5 and then the ex-English trained Mourilyan was another 1½L back in 3rd carrying 8-8 in his first run for his new trainer. Then you have Bauer beaten a nose and Purple Moon beaten ½L when giving away 2lbs to the winner with an Aidan O'Brien runner in 3rd all seems to suggest they do know what type is needed.
If you then factor in the year Shocking won it by ¾L when carrying 8-0 from the English based Crime Scene with that one carrying 8-5 and then the ex-English trained Mourilyan was another 1½L back in 3rd carrying 8-8 in his first run for his new trainer. Then you have Bauer beaten a nose and Purple Moon beaten ½L when giving away 2lbs to the winner with an Aidan O'Brien runner in 3rd all seems to suggest they do know what type is needed.
Impossible to think how Yeats could win a half decent race in the UK let alone multiple Gold Cups. Thought the staying ranks over ther were stronger than that. Obviously not.
If Yeats hadn't picked up an injury as a 3yo he would probably have won the Derby (short priced favourite) and his career would have been a lot different.
Sending horses for the Melbourne Cup wasn't considered anything more than a novelty until Vintage Crop won it. Yeats wasn't the right horse to send (his form was always so much better at the start of the season then the end) but he's the best that's ever been sent. If horses of his quality were sent every year they'd be successful more often than not.
If Yeats hadn't picked up an injury as a 3yo he would probably have won the Derby (short priced favourite) and his career would have been a lot different.
Sending horses for the Melbourne Cup wasn't considered anything more than a novelty until Vintage Crop won it. Yeats wasn't the right horse to send (his form was always so much better at the start of the season then the end) but he's the best that's ever been sent. If horses of his quality were sent every year they'd be successful more often than not.
http://www.goracing.ie/HRI/Whats-On/About-Horse-Racing/Profiles/Horse-Profil...
Yep trained by a Paddy. Good one. Anymore?
Yeah trained by a Paddy who readily admits he has only just found out how to get the best out of him.
How are we supposed to win any more when we don't bother entering?
Haradasun won the Queen Anne trained by the same Paddy. Not quite middle distance but not sprinting either.
The Problem with the Breeders meeting is that Aussie's would be mad to travel to America at the same time as the Melbourne Spring Carnival is on. Our prizemoney is pretty good too.
The only real overseas smash and grab option is June-Julyperiod because it is winter here and while racing here continues, big prizemoney is not on offer.
Also taking sprinters over is more appealing because they take less training and time to prepare. They can be sent over and brought back and still given a bit of a spell before starting up again for Spring.
Yeah trained by a Paddy who readily admits he has only just found out how to get the best out of him.
How are we supposed to win any more when we don't bother entering?
Haradasun won the Queen Anne trained by the same Paddy. Not quite middle distance but not sprinting either.
The Problem with the Breeders meeting is that Aussie's would be mad to travel to America at the same time as the Melbourne Spring Carnival is on. Our prizemoney is pretty good too.
The only real overseas smash and grab option is June-Julyperiod because it is winter here and while racing here continues, big prizemoney is not on offer.
Also taking sprinters over is more appealing because they take less training and time to prepare. They can be sent over and brought back and still given a bit of a spell before starting up again for Spring.
Is anyone really believing that O'Brien claptrap about not knowing how to get the best out of So You Think?
The horse is clearly very good but no superstar and they need to both protect their investment as a breeding operation in both hemispheres and so needed to provide excuses for why the horse was getting beaten. It has never even run a bad race though since O'Brien's had it and in England has only been narrowly beaten at the very highest level whenever it was. It was never going to win the Arc off level weights against genuine Gr1 quality 12f due to the trip and don't bother mentioning the 3rd in the 2 mile Melbourne Cup as they aren't genuine Gr1 horses and he was only carrying 8-11 against handicappers.
The US and UAE runs were more than likely afterthoughts in an attempt to try to redeem his reputation as a "superstar" and probably weren't exactly in the horse's best interest but I don't really see how on the evidence of any of his runs that it points to any way in which he has been badly trained and reckon that's a case of O'Brien being benevolent on the horse's behalf and taking blame where there wasn't any needed.
The horse is clearly very good but no superstar and they need to both protect their investment as a breeding operation in both hemispheres and so needed to provide excuses for why the horse was getting beaten. It has never even run a bad race though since O'Brien's had it and in England has only been narrowly beaten at the very highest level whenever it was. It was never going to win the Arc off level weights against genuine Gr1 quality 12f due to the trip and don't bother mentioning the 3rd in the 2 mile Melbourne Cup as they aren't genuine Gr1 horses and he was only carrying 8-11 against handicappers.
The US and UAE runs were more than likely afterthoughts in an attempt to try to redeem his reputation as a "superstar" and probably weren't exactly in the horse's best interest but I don't really see how on the evidence of any of his runs that it points to any way in which he has been badly trained and reckon that's a case of O'Brien being benevolent on the horse's behalf and taking blame where there wasn't any needed.
Makabye Diva was given a light weight in her first Melbourne Cup because she was a newcomer who had never before run over 2 miles... whats a handicaper to do? Give a horse topweight when never running over the trip and never winning any other major race of note? It is true she was a weighted certainty that year, the connections and trainer knew what they were doing.
Her second Melbourne Cup, the handicaper can't be too harsh, an 11 lb penalty is still a hefty penalty for winning last year. Anyways she showed her versatility and won it on a very heavy track which made that years race a true staying test and should have suited Vinnie Roe, it did suit him and he ran his best race in the Melbourne Cup, but she was just too good.
Yes in her third year, she was allotted 9-2... technically more than Vinnie Roe because she is a mare. But she was much too good for him again.
Her second Melbourne Cup, the handicaper can't be too harsh, an 11 lb penalty is still a hefty penalty for winning last year. Anyways she showed her versatility and won it on a very heavy track which made that years race a true staying test and should have suited Vinnie Roe, it did suit him and he ran his best race in the Melbourne Cup, but she was just too good.
Yes in her third year, she was allotted 9-2... technically more than Vinnie Roe because she is a mare. But she was much too good for him again.
to be fair, UK runners more often than not run a great race... if not winning it, they are placed 2nd 3rd and 4th regularly.
On the whole I think UK trainers have figured the Melbourne Cup out and should be given credit.
On the whole I think UK trainers have figured the Melbourne Cup out and should be given credit.
Regarding So You Think, whatever the case with his training... we will never know for sure.
What I do know is a bad ride when I see it, and So You Think was ridden badly in last years POW...
This is the fault of not only the jockey but also the trainer's overconfidence.
I have no doubt if he was ridden more patiently last year, he would have saw off Rewilding's challenge.
And he would currently be a dual Prince of Wales winner... and in a couple of weeks very likely dual Eclipse winner, on top of his two Cox Plate wins.
How does that not qualify him as only a very good horse? You have a bigger 10f race than the Prince of Wales?
What I do know is a bad ride when I see it, and So You Think was ridden badly in last years POW...
This is the fault of not only the jockey but also the trainer's overconfidence.
I have no doubt if he was ridden more patiently last year, he would have saw off Rewilding's challenge.
And he would currently be a dual Prince of Wales winner... and in a couple of weeks very likely dual Eclipse winner, on top of his two Cox Plate wins.
How does that not qualify him as only a very good horse? You have a bigger 10f race than the Prince of Wales?
*How does that qaulify him as only a very good horse?
`A very good horse` is still realistic to his ability. He will never be mentioned with the greats.
The press going overboard notwithstanding... he was never considered a "great" in Australia either, he certainly isn't mentioned in the same breath as Kingston Town or Tulloch, let alone Phar Lap.
Kingston Town was gelded after his first race as a 3 year old wasnt he? And after that improved at a rate of knots which took connections breath away. I like these stories. Couldnt sell the horse for 8K as a yearling...but went on to be a wonder horse. Great story.
...but went on to be a wonder horse. Great story.
Yes, Tommy Smith was not one to worry too much about his horses stallion prospects... if they were wayward and didn't have their mind on the job, he gelded them... certainly worked wonders for poor old Kingston Town!
A lot of your best horses do have that rags to riches aura about them. Not exactly bred in the purple but defy all expectations.
Aussie racing industry is huge, second only to the US in number of runners I think. Goes back to the old theory, if you throw enough numbers (horses) at a problem your bound to uncover a freak or two along the way :)
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