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13 Jun 12
14:59
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23 Apr 12
Nick Mordin.
It's quite easy to tell when the horses pass the five furlong marker from videos of races at Newbury. They cross the camera at that point, the rails on the near side end and the five furlong marker itself is very obvious.
This being so I know I've clocked the final five furlongs for all the races at Newbury last Saturday accurately. I mention this because not only did FRANKEL (47) run much closer to my standard times (and everybody's) than any other winner on the card, he also ran the final five furlongs much faster.
The only horse to come close to Frankel's final five furlongs was Palace Moon, a Listed class sprinter. In his race they ran the last five furlongs 1.2 seconds slower than they did in Frankel's Lockinge. Seeing how fast Frankel had run the first three furlongs of his race and that Palace Moon's race was two furlongs shorter simply equalling the final five furlong time of the sprint would have entitled Frankel to a solid Group 1 speed rating. Running 1.2 seconds faster amazes me.
Frankel does seem to be an almost unstoppable force over a mile. And his pedigree, physique and big stride all indicate he's crying out for ten furlongs. However I don't think it would be a great idea to step him up in distance at Royal Ascot for the Prince Of Wales Stakes. He came closest to defeat when only just scraping home in the St James's Palace Stakes at the same meeting last year. It may very well be that his huge stride makes him unsuited to tracks with relatively short homestraights like Ascot's round course. If he were mind I wouldn't risk his unbeaten record there. I would wait for the longer homestraights provided by Sandown's Eclipse Stakes or York's Juddmonte International.
Out of interest I counted how many strides Frankel took to cover the last five furlongs. It was 135. That means his stride length was 24.4 feet, a bit more than 10% longer than average. At the slightly slower pace he'd be going over ten furlongs he would probably adopt a longer stride of around 27 feet. Indeed I bet he's already done that in races where he hasn't been pressed to go as fast as he was here.
Runner up EXCELEBRATION (42) was asked to shadow Frankel's every move but simply couldn't go with him in the closing stages. Nonetheless he proved that he's a proper Group 1 horse with this performance.
It's quite easy to tell when the horses pass the five furlong marker from videos of races at Newbury. They cross the camera at that point, the rails on the near side end and the five furlong marker itself is very obvious.
This being so I know I've clocked the final five furlongs for all the races at Newbury last Saturday accurately. I mention this because not only did FRANKEL (47) run much closer to my standard times (and everybody's) than any other winner on the card, he also ran the final five furlongs much faster.
The only horse to come close to Frankel's final five furlongs was Palace Moon, a Listed class sprinter. In his race they ran the last five furlongs 1.2 seconds slower than they did in Frankel's Lockinge. Seeing how fast Frankel had run the first three furlongs of his race and that Palace Moon's race was two furlongs shorter simply equalling the final five furlong time of the sprint would have entitled Frankel to a solid Group 1 speed rating. Running 1.2 seconds faster amazes me.
Frankel does seem to be an almost unstoppable force over a mile. And his pedigree, physique and big stride all indicate he's crying out for ten furlongs. However I don't think it would be a great idea to step him up in distance at Royal Ascot for the Prince Of Wales Stakes. He came closest to defeat when only just scraping home in the St James's Palace Stakes at the same meeting last year. It may very well be that his huge stride makes him unsuited to tracks with relatively short homestraights like Ascot's round course. If he were mind I wouldn't risk his unbeaten record there. I would wait for the longer homestraights provided by Sandown's Eclipse Stakes or York's Juddmonte International.
Out of interest I counted how many strides Frankel took to cover the last five furlongs. It was 135. That means his stride length was 24.4 feet, a bit more than 10% longer than average. At the slightly slower pace he'd be going over ten furlongs he would probably adopt a longer stride of around 27 feet. Indeed I bet he's already done that in races where he hasn't been pressed to go as fast as he was here.
Runner up EXCELEBRATION (42) was asked to shadow Frankel's every move but simply couldn't go with him in the closing stages. Nonetheless he proved that he's a proper Group 1 horse with this performance.
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I will never doubt FRANKEL (47) again after what he did in the Sussex Stakes. He loped along in the lead at a moderate pace then picked up in almost unbelievable fashion over the last half mile. He ran the first four furlongs in a modest 52.78 seconds and the final four furlongs in a near impossible 44.69 seconds. .
The bare final time merits a speed rating of 43 from me. But when I factor in the amazing way he quickened up I must award Frankel the joint highest speed rating I've ever given. Only Falbrav and Dayjur have ever earned a rating that big from me before on the flat. For comparison, they went even slower in the early stages of the preceding Group 2 Vintage Stakes and the race was a furlong shorter, but they only managed 47.13 seconds for the final half mile. The clock suggests that if the all the way Vintage Stakes winner had jumped into the Sussex after a furlong he'd have been two lengths behind with four furlongs to run and that Frankel would have extended his advantage by another dozen lengths from there. Frankel won this race easily and finished fresh as a daisy. And once more he ran like a horse that would have no problem at all stepping up to ten furlongs. This being so there's no good reason not to let him take up his engagement in the Juddmonte International. |
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Angus Mcnae.
My thoughts about Frankel have caused a number of you some consternation and some of you have let me know just how wrong you think I am. One gentleman told me that I had never trained a classic winner, one said that speed figures are worthless, another said he had been at Goodwood and saw Frankel with his own eyes. I could go on but I am not going to change my mind folks and incidentally I did suggest that Canford Cliffs may have suffered an injury in the race and had consequently run below form. It is true I have never trained a classic winner, but does that really mean that I have no right to comment on the Sussex Stakes? As for speed figures being worthless, well suh a statement is laughable and barely worth a reply. There has also been some misunderstanding as to my views on the Sussex Stakes. Let me try again. The Sussex Stakes was a slowly run time trial where Frankel got an easy lead and his main rival ran well below form. He ran a poor speed figure and the race as a form guide is worthless. He is a supremely talented racehorse who ran a big speed figure in the Guineas but he cannot be acclaimed as a champion for what he did in the Sussex Stakes. The adulation and hype after the race was completely over the top. Time to put that one to bed now i think until he wins another easy lead time trial at Ascot later this year. THEY CAN'T BOTH BE RIGHT. |
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I liked this comment from a poster.
Your comment “The Figures Never Lie” and then “until he wins another easy lead time trial at Ascot later this year” are further example of your propensity for ****-stirring and tendentious trouble-making. Sectional times are important but the absolute time in which a race is won is of lesser importance because the characteristics of racetracks in England vary hugely and some tracks are far more demanding than others due to gradients and uphill final sections. By the way, arrogance is a third rate defence to criticism. |
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Well said mate,arrogance is the right word.
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Why should i get threads pulled for disagreeing with this arrogant clown?
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Black Caviar seems to be settling into her Newmarket base quite nicely and she is bang on course to win the Diamond Jubilee a week on Saturday. Personally I believe she will bolt up, but would not be prepared to get heavily involved if the forecast rain arrives. Apparently there is going to be an absolute deluge this weekend and then again next week, which would at least render the ground soft and it will not be fresh ground either as it will have been raced on all week. I am not saying she can be beaten because I believe she is the best horse in the world, but we would all be foolish not to factor in the conditions under which she may have to race. EXCUSES,EXCUSES.
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stop it now Trigger - u goin mad!
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A good thread i think.How do these speed figure men come to such different conclusions if the figures never lie?Anyone.
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I rely on form, not speed figures.
The horses that finished 2nd to Excelebration when he won added to the horses who finished 3rd when Excelebration finished 2nd to Frankel have run 72 between them. From those 72 runs they have won 4 races, 3 minor handicaps and 1 maiden. Talk your way out of that one Trigger. |
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You told me that before,what price Frankel 4 you then.
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You are as bad as mac,Frankel slagged because of EX,come on.Daylight finishes 2nd.
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I've backed Frankel to be unbeaten this season at 7/4 with PP. I've backed Frankel to win the QA at 2/5 with the same firm. It is obvious Cecil will do everything and avoid everything to get Frankel to the end of the season unbeaten. That is also why he was a cert to run in the QA. I think that is a reasonable price but I am not blinded by hype and hysteria. You can only genuinely judge how good a horse is by what it beats. Anything else is just imagination.
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Glad you have made those bets,but hardly hype.Best horse i have ever seen.BC on the other hand is HYPE.
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Frankels power and stride and stamina are unmatched , cant say what we have not seen yet it would be stupid
But frankel will never be beaten whatever trip he tries , ive never seen anything like him Have you looked at him directly after a race , you wouldn never know it had run a group one over a mile the horse is special |
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Compared to Frankel that is.
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I still want to know how the speed figure men can come up with such differing opinions.Or FACTS as they see it.
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How can Mordin give Frankel his joint top rating ever in the Sussex and Mac say it was a poor figure?How and why?
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Different watches?
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One of them must be wrong,i wonder who?
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Is Mordin picking parts of a race and Mac the end time?
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You see Trip you start off alright then screw it up. BC, like Frankel, can only beat what they put in front of her. I wonder how many horses who finished 2nd to her have won Group 1's? With Frankel it is 3, yes 3. And I don't see that changing in his next couple of races.
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Screw it up?What about horses that finished further behind?
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CC had won 5 G1 races before getting stuffed.Picking out bits that suit your argument.
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No.I think a man that does what he has done,if it is him is a coward.
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BC on the other hand is HYPE.
You're talking complete shyte, tbh |
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We have heard hardly a thing about Frankel compared to BC in the last week,so compared to Frankel hype.You are talking complete sh1t tbh.
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Dear me, if that's your argument, I don't think you're in a position to tell anyone they're talking shyte
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What argument?
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You insulted me first Gonzo.
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No insult, simply a statement of fact.
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Silly argument,but here goes.Frankel best horse in the world,BC second best.This week BC has had 90% of the media coverage so compared to Frankel=HYPE.Thanks.
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Silly argument
Got that right |
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Let's end it there then.
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brigust1
13 Jun 12 17:17 Joined: 07 Dec 01 | Topic/replies: 3,621 | Blogger: brigust1's blog You see Trip you start off alright then screw it up. BC, like Frankel, can only beat what they put in front of her. I wonder how many horses who finished 2nd to her have won Group 1's? With Frankel it is 3, yes 3. And I don't see that changing in his next couple of races. I don't understand what you mean here? The horses Frankel has beat have 20 group 1 wins between them. This includes Nathaniel, Treasure Beach, Roderic O'Connor, Dream Ahead, Canford Cliffs, Wooton Bassett, Zoffany, Excelebration, and Casamento. |
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Billy, using that method then horses like Delegator and Gan Amras are rated as better than Rip van Winkle when they clearly are not. The test of a proper race is where the best horse beats the next best horse then their form in future races confirms the form or otherwise. When a horse wins a race that race can be assessed by what the 2nd horse does in future races. Horses that finished behind the 2nd best horse can be deemed to have either 'not run their race' (so you cannot include them) or 'would not have beaten the 2nd horse anyway'. So what the 2nd horse does will frank the form.
When a horse beats another horse who then wins good races that will confirm the quality of that race. |
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Where's IMA when you need him.He has the time and passion.
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Trip, obviously Frankel is an exceptional horse and he may be the best you have ever seen. He may be the best I have ever seen but, on paper as yet he isn't. I would like Cecil to run him over 10f at Ascot maybe even 12f in the KG and bolt up everywhere. But that isn't going to happen so we will all be left assuming he is/was the best there is. The hype may say he is but the fact don't.
No-one questions Arkle's credentials but if Cecil ducks everything Frankel's credentials will be continually questioned. |
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Canford cliffs was a top class animal absoloutley trounced by frankel
Take a look at the calibre of horse canford beat |