FRANKEL RUNS IMPOSSIBLY FAST.

Selective Megs,come on now.

McNae is commenting on The Sussex Stakes run of 2011 when the figure was below Gp1 standard.
Mordin commenting on the Lockinge 2012.
Mordin was saying the same as McNae before he reviewed the Lockinge.

Wrong.

trips..morning mate but seriously, what has run 2nd and 3rd behind him?

That's fair enough John_Cherry, the game is all about opinions and we can respect each others and the right to them but still disagree and hopefully not feel the need to be abusive with it.

I would point out though on another matter than Immortal Verse went into last season's QEll off of a hat trick including the latter 2 being Gr1s with the last a 1L beating of Goldikova, which puts her closely matched with Canford Cliffs and yet Immortal Verse finished 3½L behind Excelebration and 7½L behind Frankel in the QEll.

Morning MEGS,daylight is 2nd.

Jun 14, 2012 -- 12:10AM, Roger De Bris wrote:

McNae is commenting on The Sussex Stakes run of 2011 when the figure was below Gp1 standard.Mordin commenting on the Lockinge 2012.Mordin was saying the same as McNae before he reviewed the Lockinge.

Read again.

anyway, you know us, we both like to throw a bone to the pack of hungry wolves, even if we picked all the meat off the bone first

enjoy your night

There is a review of the Lockinge and 2 of the Sussex.

Enjoy your day Megs and sell some expensive coins.

sussex was a walk , trot, sprint home, should never been given such a high rating for running only 1 1/2 furlongs

Roger,got it yet?

immortal verse beat goldikova EASED at the line, u think thats as good as goldikova ever was?

okay didnt notice Mordins Sussex review, thought it was pasted twice. So Mordin loves the Sussex run, McNae thinks it was below standard. Can easily happen, two figures guys with two totally different views. It all boils down to their standard times. One different to another.

Whose figs would you place more store by?

The figures never lie says Mac,well someone's do.

fwiw i dont believe canford travelled with his usual zest in the sussex but regardless frankel is a better horse than he ever was imo.

i dont feel canford gave his running that day but he cant beat frankel anyway. the queen anne should be thrilling

neither. Your own are always the best if you know your stuff.

Are you a speed man Roger,if so what are your opinions on Frankel?

You could say the same about Canford Cliffs when beating Golikava but in both races Goldikava ran her race regardless.

And "eased at the line" as in stopped pushing for the final 2 strides when already a length up anyway.

Look,it is simplistic,but Mcnae needed his speed figs to tell him how good Camelot was.You don't need a weatherman to tell you when it's p1ss1ng down.

ima u cannot judge goldikova thru that one race is all im saying, thats NOT as good as she is, she'd already beat immortal verse several lengths previous. collerateral form is just once small piece of the puzzle as u know.

Frankel is the best i have seen and the craptain's figures can tell me he is no good.I know different.

good, dont get so beat up about someone elses figures.

nobody can prove anything.

relax.

i am. But havent many turf ones done yet, so no opinion yet.

It's not the figs,it is the way he slyly digs at the horse's ability which annoys me.No need for it.He is wrong.

He is a contrarian and stirrer,always looking to avoid the obvious.If BC was English he would be laying into her.I can't stand the arrogant know nothing.

Much Speculation is made about Frankel's unknown abilities to handle middle and near middle distance events and much of this pressure comes from the traditional but possibly wrong belief that middle distance races are the mark of the best equine athletes and lets face it when you watch the old video footage of a superstar like Secretariat its easy to fall for this belief but Frankel now at Four years of age is carry more weight and quite possibly is the unknown top sprinter of the world that is being forced to run like a Typical classic horse to suit the Sports expectations but for me real running is all about speed and not horses that can come off the pace as other horses tire and I can safely say that Frankel though he may get undone at 11 furlongs plus would beat any horse in the world at 6f-8f and that is his true game, not holding him back for the longer trips as he is crying out to explode into his legendary front,forward fast pace and hates being towed along under heavy restriction and his jockey had the right idea in the guineas to just let him go...

But then again its not unknown for horses to develop into stayers as they mature and Frankel may have one last trick up his sleeve.

He has more tricks than a clown's pocket.

I am sure he thinks Frankel is the best but he won't back down now.Can't stand losing face.

Doesnt matter where they put frankel no one will go near him citing any possible excuse , the juddmonte is a top class race won by some of the finest animals in turf history and if they have a horse capable they will take him on or avoid him if they havent .

I get what you are saying ilikewavingatbuses but don't see why we can't judge Goldikova on that performance, as she ran her race and looked as good as when being beaten by the same distance as Canford Cliffs 2 races previous to that run and had won in between those 2 runs and was then narrowly beaten by Dream Ahead at 7f in the race after.

It was also the only time Immortal Verse and Goldikova have met as far as I'm aware.

Maxypup seething again because evryone else knows what a dipstick Mordin is except poor Max.nap

Btw Maxypup.........if there are going to be new laws about porkie pies........you will be stuck for something to say.

There will be and you will be the first exposed.NAP.

I have no opinion on Mordin,good or bad.I was just pointing out the difference between speed figure exponents.G-T,you will be exposed as a liar,abuser and bully.I will make sure of it.NAP.

Enjoy your prison sentence.

another ejaculation fest here at the hands of t-t

btw mugs, horses only hang out for 2 reasons, they're injured or they are very new to racing and don't know what is being asked of them

Oh dear

Utter drivel from Ed as usual.

Up early for a scrap tt

Not gone to bed yet Mr Tiger

Study done,off to bed now.

Study starting sweet dreams Max

Frankel is 1/8 to win the Queen Anne at Royal Ascot and whilst he will probably win easily he will actually not enhance his reputation in any way. If he is going to do that he needs to step up in trip and race against sterner opposition than just his own pacemaker. Don't get me wrong, I am looking forward to seeing him again, but it is not going to be a horse race, rather an exercise gallop. Brigadier Gerrard went to all the big meetings and won 17 of his 18 races from six furlongs to a mile and a half beating top class horses such as Mill Reef as he went along. Such achievements make him a great champion, Frankel needs to do similar if he is really worthy of being called great. ANGUS MCNAE.

PROBABLY

BC will bolt up.Frankel will probably win easily in an exercise gallop.Gotta love this clown.

Have a look for yourself TT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOOoh3UPujU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2j2JvPa-UE

Seen it all before and i would never disrespect such a great horse.He was my father's favourite horse.Mac on the other hand does.

Didn't Dylan Thomas have to survive a stewards' when he won the Arc after drifting across the course and into the rail? Which category from injured or didn't know what was being asked of him did he come under? How about Workforce in the King George too for that matter?

Canford Cliffs must have been injured or didn't know what was being asked of him in in a few of his races then, despite winning on debut and Hannon's 2YOs are usually well forward and know their job with many being able to win FTO, just as CC did and his 2 today also did in the first 2 races.

I don't care if king henry the 16th is training the horse, 2YO's will hang out no matter what if they're new to the caper, not every 2YO but it's a common trait, far more common in 2YO's then any other type of horse

I didn't see the races, don't know the conditions and what caused it, I probably could of worded it better, of course there are other factors but it happens a lot to horses who are injured, especially seasoned horses, why do YOU think the horse wanted to hang? really I don't care why the horse wanted to hang, I just think it's ludicrous you completely palm off the possibility based on a quick race report

there's a fair chance if the horse was retired after the race and reports were the horse was injured, then perhaps he hung out because he was injured?

just because a race report doesn't declare the horse hanging due to injury doesn't mean it wasn't the case, form analysts aren't known to be vets

I didn't see the races.Uninformed comment then,no good to anyone is it?

I seen the Canford Cliffs race, not the Dylan Thomas race or the Workforce King George

All of his races?If you had you would know he had done it before.

there's always a reason for it, it's not just a habit

it's never a habit

educeee • June 14, 2012 2:49 PM BST
I don't care if king henry the 16th is training the horse, 2YO's will hang out no matter what if they're new to the caper, not every 2YO but it's a common trait, far more common in 2YO's then any other type of horse

a quick search on RI of horses earning comment in running of %hung% doesn't support your assumption i'm afraid ... last flat turf season 2yo's earned the comment 5.083% as oppose to 5.183% of 3yo's earning the same comment

Yes but we are not only talking about 2YOs here, we are talking about experienced older horses like Canford Cliffs, Dylan Thomas and Workforce and any number of other horses that have drifted for any number of reasons that were neither injured nor didn't know what was being asked of them.

The point being made is they aren't the only reasons why a horse will drift, they are certainly 2 of them but 2 of many. The only reason I mentioned Hannon and 2YOs is even if we gave "didn't know what was being asked of him" for the reason for CC drifting as a 2YO (although I was pointing out Hannon's tend to know the score anyway) what was the reason other than being put under pressure and so beaten when drifting as a 3 and 4YO?

CC drifted away from the whip in it's 2YO race, which is another reason horses drift but the jockey didn't bother trying to straighten him as he won by 6L anyway and knew that the rail would keep the horse straight once he reached it and was only a few horse's widths off the rail anyway. CC drifting behind Frankel was because Frankel broke him and put him under pressure after having been cruising with 3f to go and then Frankel kicked. There was no injury, just a "slight shadow" on a bone scan that they said "might" lead to an injury.......and you can bet your life they didn't ask for scans when the horse was drifting in it's earlier races and especially not when drifting and still winning.

Exactly,no injury.Just protecting his reputation.

I can't cop that, hung out because "Frankel broke him", is that the only time he's been beaten?

did he hang the times he was beaten?

the only horse broken in that race was Rewilding

i've seen alot of races, too many races probably

i've never seen a horse hang purely because the winner was going too good

it would have to be a first, I don't know Hannon, don't know what kinda guy he is but surely when he says the horse hung because he was injured, he must have been injured

I think you are getting your races mixed up there but fair enough, you are talking about UK racing and that might not be your stronger point in comparison to Aussie racing.

Canford Cliffs has hung before when beaten on at least 2 other occasions before facing Frankel and my assertion is that he's a bridle horse that wins well when he can do it easily by cruising for most of the race and then one burst of speed for say a furlong or so and sometime even less. If he's put under pressure then I feel he tends to hang and because Frankel went for it from around 3f out, he "broke" CC as in broke his heart or spirit, I don't mean he caused him to physically break down.

Rewilding broke down in the KG but that was a different race and ironically was the same one Workforce drifted across the track during.

perhaps his hanging is a result of resenting the whip?

No,drifted under hand riding.

Ima, when a horse does something like 'hanging' it is usually because something is hurting them. That is something often refered to by trainers. These things don't always show up until serious pressure is applied. In some instances, like Rewilding or even Detroit City, something just gives.
When John Gosden grabbed Rewilding, who had broken his leg, JG said the horse doesn't feel anything because of the adrenalin. So for a horse to hang seriously the pain must be pretty severe.

Well,he must be a miracle horse then,being in pain from 2yrs onwards.

Why do they run on Lasix in the US then Trig? Come on, be sensible.

Maybe, just maybe Goodwood doesn't suit him with the undulations. He won easily the first time he ran there but, like they say about Epsom, often they only run on it once. CC's other races were all on stiff flat tracks. Except Newmarket where, even there, apparently he got unbalanced running into the dip.

be sensible

not even if he tried....

beyond him

Well he wasn't on Lasix.

Maybe it didn't suit,but that just backs up my point that he wasn't injured.

But again brigust1 injury is just one of many reasons for a horse to hang and if it was the first and only time Canford Cliffs had done that then fair enough but it wasn't and he had done so a few times before, usually when beaten and therefore taken out of his comfort zone. Like I asked earlier, why didn't they scan the horse the other times it did it and why didn't Hughes dismount or pull up if there was any obvious injury?

When you have the trainer telling the racing world this is the best horse he's had in 40 years and it then gets annihilated by another, then they had better come up with some reason to excuse that kind of beating and claiming an iffy injury might have been that reason and packing the horse off to stud just as it has been sold to Coolmore seems a bit too convenient. The horse would have ended up another Excelebration if taking on Frankel repeatedly and both CC and Excel are top class horses and on a par ability wise but just not up to Frankel's level.

Canford Cliffs hung whenever he was asked to run faster than he was able to sprint, his hold up style meant that he ran close to even fractions in most of his wins as the other horses were slowing down close home, in slowly run or small fields his top speed didn't compete with other horses, that's why he got unbalanced going into the dip at Newmarket because it was a downhill section that required faster running.

The Sussex was as good as Canford Cliffs was. He was a very good miler but no wonder horse - it looked good when he got his head on front on the line but the fact is that Frankel is probably at least 10lbs better. Connections were always very protective of CC's reputation and there were some odd things said about him e.g. Hannon saying he would run in the QEII unless he scoped bad - then sure enough he scoped bad.

Lasix is used more to prevent bleeding.

Would have been good to see Goldikova on top form against Frankel. CC would have been a distant third.

Ima, Detriot City lost his form fairly spectacularly having won 8 off the bounce and been a brilliant hurdler. He got beaten inexplicably in 2 races and was called a dog and everything. If I remember they even fitted him with blinkers.
Then, in the third race after his winning streak, approaching the last in a race, he had a heart attack and died.

Just because you cannot see pain that doesn't mean it isn't there and pain shows itself in various ways including hanging. Just because, in fact simply because, CC had shown signs of suffering before then there is even more reason for his reaction when put under pressre at Goodwood.
If you think CC hanging had absolutely no effect on the result I suggest you refer to the formbook. I don't think for one moment CC would have troubled Frankel but for you lot to only have the CC form to hang onto says everything.

To underline just how good Frankel is just look at how he wins most of his races as AOB sends his own pacemaker for his best charges and they nearly always don't get near Frankel who targets his own special pacemaker that keeps the race at a cracking pace, so that means halfway through every race its in the lead Frankels pace-maker followed by Frankel followed by the pace-maker and horse of the trainer that's won every British classic this season!

If the penny hasn't dropped and you dont get it by now you never will

Yeah of course Canford Cliffs hanging had an effect on the result brigust1 but only by the distance beaten due to running off a true line but the finishing places would obviously have still been the same. All I'm suggesting is the so called injury that was never shown to actually be an injury was an excuse to retire the horse with its reputation reasonably intact before it was totally destroyed via facing Frankel again.

Forget CC and Excelebration then and for the sake of example purposes say they never faced Frankel but the races he ran were the same, he'd have won the Greenham by 10L, Sussex Stakes by 7½L, QEll by 7½L and the Lockinge by 9L, all Gr1s and how often does that kind of thing happen? That alone makes him a top class horse.

I know your Detroit City example was just that, but a horse suffering a heart attack doesn't mean it has always had a heart problem DC had won 8 on the trot not long before his final race, including the Cesarewitch on the flat but the final 3 races he was beaten in that came after those 8 wins were Grd1 races like the Champion Hurdle, Aintree hurdle and so were no gimmes anyway and you can obviously ignore the last race even though it was only a Grd2.

Ima, why would he have to meet Frankel again? There are loads of really profitable Group 1's all over the world, even the Breeder's Cup.

Ima, no-one is saying Frankel isn't a great horse but your problem is you are too deluded to hold a rational discussion. For example how far did Hawk Wing win the Lockinge? How far did Shergar win Derby? How far did Humble Duty win the Guineas? It really doesn't matter how far you win something nowadays because the 2nd isn't going to knock his horse about and get a ban.

Your problem is you cannot see rational points of view so when, if Frankel gets beaten your whole pack of cards collapses. Because you don't accept reasons for other horses getting beaten why should anyone accept yours if he is?

Yes and in many of those other Gr1s Frankel would have been entered in them too so how would they have known where or when they could run to avoid him and not also make it look as if they weren't trying to?

I also didn't just give an isolated big distance Gr1 win, I gave you a series and all from the same horse but the fact you had to go back to the the 2003 Lockinge winner, 1981 winner and a 12f race and the 1970 1000 Guineas winner kind of gives the game away that it's not too often.........and I wasn't actually saying it never happens, just asking how often.

LOL.....I love how some on here just come out with a basically meaningless sweeping statement with nothing specific just because you don't agree with their point of view. Nothing is ever going to convince me that there was any physical injury that caused Frankel to beat CC the way he did and the main reason for that is that no actual injury was found. If that counts as not being able to see rational points of view then I am more than happy to plead guilty to it.

All those races Ima? You mean 1 race. Although there are loads of Group 1 races at the nd of the season from the end of July Frankel only ran once more. And you misguidedly think RH couldn't have found a race without meeting Frankel? Strange idea, strange.

RH put CC away after the Sussex Stakes the year before as well. Once the horse's status had been established seemed they didn't want to take any risks.

They could have retired him then after beating RVW in the Sussex. They could have retired him after beating Goldikova at Ascot. Had they done so no-one would know for sure whether or not Frankel would have beaten him. But they were sporting and took the best miler for years on at weight for age and even then when they do retire him after swerving across the course at Goodwood and being well beaten some people think it is a ploy. I don't know.

It was one race that season brigust1 but it was still one race too many that they didn't fancy and who is to say they wouldn't have kept Canford Cliffs in training for another year had they won the Sussex that season? Hannon did it with Paco Boy and Coolmore have kept the likes of Yeats, Scorpion, Septimus, Powerscourt and Fame and Glory, all of those racing as 5YOs and older. What I do suspect is that almost every mile race Canford Cliffs was entered in after the Sussex Stakes, Frankel would have been in too. I dare say Hannon could have found a race for CC even after the defeat but as I've already said, they wouldn't be sure or not if Frankel would actually run in it too and if they went for unusual choices it would be obvious they were avoiding him.

Maybe they didn't retire CC after beating RVW (a 10-12f horse btw) in the Sussex or after beating Goldikova at RA due to the fact CC won those races. They were also more than keen to take on Frankel because they were confident they would win.

That is how a twisted mind works Ima. You disregard the Hannon team not retiring after the Sussex, you disregard the Hannon team for not retiring after the Queen Anne (where they could have gained hugely from not taking on Frankel when all of the odds were against them) and then you slag them off when they retire their horse due to potential injury when a problem previously seen then returns at Goodwood. No-one is claiming Frankel would have been beaten. Absolutely no-one. Your problem is you cannot recognise sportsmanship when it is staring you in the face.
In fact if the Cecil team, with Frankel, showed even half the sportsmanship the Hannon team has shown over the years he wouldn't be running in the Queen Anne he would be running in the Prince of Wales. But clearly the Cecil team have no guts.

Lets see just who has the guts in the juddmonte brigust

That's the problem Hello. Cecil knows if he stepped him up next week the opposition would be strong. Whereas by putting it off until August he can assess the opposition then decide. You are taking a huge leap of faith thinking Frankel will turn up if the opposition is equally strong.
The plan is he will have only one more possible run before retiring and you think he will put a 12 win unbeaten run on the line when Cecil isn't sure how good he is. Don't you believe it. If Cecil thought he would stay 10f and be as good he would be running in the POW next week but he isn't sure and that problem will still be there for the Juddmonte.

So let me see if I can get this straight in my twisted mind brigust1.

Are you seriously trying to say now that the Hannon team knowingly ran an injured horse against Frankel? As for them being sporting, I've said why I think they took on Frankel and that reason was because they thought they would win. When a multi-classic winning trainer like Hannon tells the racing world that Canford Cliffs is the best he's trained in 40 years then going to look a bit daft dodging anything else as he will feel quite confident of beating them.

Maybe the Hannon team would have retired CC after his Sussex win if they had been unbeaten during the horse's 3YO career having included winning the Newmarket 2000gns in that but the horse only really showed an increased level of form after the Irish 2000 win. It then only ran again at RA in the St James's and then the Sussex and I'm assuming they must have thought it a bit daft to retire it once it had only just started to show and fulfil its true potential. Then if they were going to keep a horse in training as a 4YO it would seem a bit of a waste to the retire it after only 2 runs in the Lockinge and Queen Anne. Had they won the Sussex for a second time then the QEll would have probably been next, then possibly the Breeders' Cup and a repeat campaign of races as a 5YO if staying in training.

As for all odds being against CC taking on Frankel in the Sussex, CC was the bookies favourite when the betting first opened up and he was going into the race off the back of a cosy win over a great like Goldikova (which had gone off favourite in the Queen Anne too btw), whereas Frankel went into it having just scraped home at RA after a hard race and with the first signs over vulnerability and also off the back of two rides that Tom Queally was absolutely slaughtered for and being told the horse/ride/occasions were too big for him by many, as opposed to Richard Hughes being lauded as cool as a cucumber and the ultimate horseman.

If you want to talk about twisted minds though then how about this?

Canford Cliffs - kicks off his 3YO career in the Greenham, then goes for the 2000, Irish 2000, St James's and Sussex.

Frankel - kicks off his 3YO career in the Greenham, then goes for the 2000, St James's and Sussex.

Canford Cliffs - begins his 4YO career in the Lockinge, then runs in the Queen Anne and Sussex.

Frankel - begins his 4YO career in the Lockinge, then is expected to run in the in the Queen Anne and Sussex.

So their 3YO careers were identical but for the Irish 2000 and their 4YO careers are identical so far and look as if they will continue to be, and yet according to you Canford Cliffs connections are sporting and tell me that I "cannot recognise sportsmanship when it is staring me in the face" but for Frankel it's a case of the Cecil team clearly have no guts. What I can recognise when it's staring me in the face is complete double standards and how did Canford Cliffs get on when they stepped him up from a mile to 10f at RA for the POW the way you are saying Frankel has to do?

Brilliant as usual IMA.

Brilliant? Are you kidding TT. The 'Ima' speaks total nonsense.

1) Hannon never claimed CC would stay 10f that is why they kept him to a mile.

2) CC was never being claimed, by anyone, as being the greatest horse ever.

Whereas Cecil has claimed repeatedly that Frankel will stay 10f but hasn't the courage to go with it. If Cecil claimed Frankel was only a miler then I, for one, wouldn't want him to run over 10f. But Cecil has repeatedly claimed he thinks Frankel will stay 10f and is suggesting he will step him up in trip at York over an extended 10f. At least that is his claim.

Why did you waste so much energy completely missing the point Ima?

Do you get it yet? Cecil claims regularly that Frankel will stay 10f. But he hasn't the guts to run him over it. I say 'Put up or shut up'.

I didn't miss the point at all brigust1 and those are just supplementary points made after and/or points open to interpretation.

Hannon has never claimed Canford Cliffs wouldn't stay 10f either but in exactly the same way as Cecil has done so with Frankel, Hannon was happy to keep CC at a mile while all the time the horse was winning. Stepping up in trip wasn't really an issue raised with CC and with most things Cecil says about Frankel they are usually in direct response to questions or claims put to him and what exactly is he supposed to say if asked that being by Galileo out out of a sprinter, does he think Frankel will stay farther, say "I'm not telling you."

Cecil has said Frankel is the best he's ever trained and probably the best ever but he could have said that about a 5f sprinter but would the horse have to win at a mile in order to back up what he was saying? Is anyone asking Black Caviar to win at 10f? They didn't even want to go up to the mile and the Sussex Stakes with their horse and she would only be asked to go a furlong more than she's already won at in what effectively would be a match. Whereas if Frankel went for the POW it would be in a highly competitive race against battle hardened predominately older main rival horses with form at the course and trip in his first attempt at stepping up, even though I still think he would win anyway and those same horses can still face him in the Juddemonte, which is the race Cecil has said all along he would be going for, what with it being the owner's own race and so I don't quite get the "hasn't the guts to run him over it" claims with regards to the trip.

Cecil might repeatedly have said he thinks Frankel will stay 10f but he has also repeatedly said what races his targets would be and had he been beaten earlier at a mile then they probably would have moved up, as there's enough to suggest the horse is actually disadvantaged at a mile but because he keeps winning then they have kept him to it so far, "so far" being the key words. Frankel's sire Galileo raced once as a 2YO with that being a mile debut and was then 10f and 12f in every other race, with his only 2 defeats being at 10f so arguably 12f was his best trip.

Either way though regardless of what both trainers have or haven't said, it's still a perfectly valid point that it's highly hypocritical of you for praising Canford Cliffs connections for " sportsmanship" while condemning Frankel's whilst basically having the same racing career.

Do you get it yet?

It surprises me that someone can take so much time talking such utter b oll ox.

There comes a time when you have to realise the discussion is totally pointless and I have reached that time. Good luck to you.

My selection today is Lean on Pete in the 2.20 at Musselburgh, ridden by Graham Lee. This lightly-raced gelding comes into this competitive handicap on the back of two good runs on the all weather. He was given one of those rides that some describe as enterprising last time out, which essentially is posh speak for kicked too soon and was caught close home! In essence he should have won and today under Lee he will get a better ride and looks poised to lose his maiden tag providing he performs to the same level on the turf.

9TH

brigust1
It surprises me that someone can take so much time talking such utter b oll ox.

Yeah well don't be too hard on yourself eh? It's only your opinion after all.