Review George Washington's Guineas again . Sure it looked good at the time , but he beat a bad Derby winner (2nd) , a maiden only winner (3rd) and the rest were either no good or sprinters . And he only won once after Newmarket , one race  from many tries ( a very ordinary renewal of the QEII ) which is something his fans tend to forget.

Mick must have either been drunk when he made that comment or he was following Coolmore's hype-everything-to-the-max line.


But if you follow the clock instead of your eyes , the best Guineas winners over the last 2 decades or so have been Zafonic , King's Best and Frankel. GW isn't even remotely close ,imo.

George should have won two BC Classics. First time, Invasor battered him on the home turn as he knew he was his only danger. In 2007, George couldn't swim but Curlin and Street Sense - luckily for them - could.

Fallon rode him as if he was the best he was ridden and more in the Moulin and Moore rode everything to sleep in that year's Eclipse. Why did Heffernan not bring GW to the standside, nobody knows.

Kinane has said George is the best he's ridden, when he said it is hardly relevant.

Viva Pataca Joined: 16 Dec 07
Replies: 735 17 Oct 11 14:29 
George should have won two BC Classics. First time, Invasor battered him on the home turn as he knew he was his only danger. In 2007, George couldn't swim but Curlin and Street Sense - luckily for them - could.

Fallon rode him as if he was the best he was ridden and more in the Moulin and Moore rode everything to sleep in that year's Eclipse. Why did Heffernan not bring GW to the standside, nobody knows.

Kinane has said George is the best he's ridden, when he said it is hardly relevant.


are u fishing?

well when u put it that way!!

i retract my last comment!

Tough call over that trip as we have yet 2 see Frankel over 10f.
For my money over a mile, Frankel would be 2 gd for STS.
2 great champions of there generations, but like all the other ones in the past (Sea Bird,Dancing Brave,The Brigadier & co) it would not be easy 2 tell who was the tops.
In my time involved in our great sport(early 80s) the best i have seen are; Dancing Brave(and he prob always will be, as he was the 1 that got me really hooked on racing, a Sunday i will never forget)
Dayjur is the best sprinter for me, tho the new Aussie sprint mare BC does look a bit special to me.
At 1mile El Gran Senor, Zilzal, Miesque and Frankel (80s to now)
Middle Dist; The Brave, Shergar, Sea The Stars.
Lets hope the mighty Frankel stays sound and remains unbeaten nxt
season over 1m/10f and he will go down as 1 of the all time greats.

Alanc1 , they would say Frankel is better than Dancing Brave. One is no longer with us the other gets more valuable if more people agree with them. Or am i cynical ?

Personally dont think Frankel has faced anything anywhere near as good as horses like STS and DB were.Not his fault of course,he can only beat what is up against him and hes done that very well,but i doubt he will ever face horses of the calibre of those just mentioned,so pointless comparing them really,as no way of knowing.
And certainly pointless getting all irate about it.
FWIW,in answer to the question i would go for STS as he is proven over the distance at the top level,but not a selection with great confidence cos Franlel could go on and prove himself over 10f next season,and he looks to me like he will be ok over an extra 2f.
No way of knowing though as i said.

Personally would not want to knock any of these horses.
They have all proved to be great horses and El Gran Senor was another in that bracket.
Frankel is still racing so probably best to wait and see what he can achieve.At this stage he is a very good miler,maybe one of the best we have seen,but that is it right now.

Buddeliea what are you talking about, I will do you a favour and advise you find another hobby. STS foes - Mastercraftsmen (enough said), Fame and Glory (possible for Cheltenham lol), Rip Van Winkle (laughed at by Canford), Delegator (enough Said). Frankels foes - Canford Cliffs ( multiple Group One winner), Excelebration ( dual group one winner), Immortal Verse ( beat the 13 time group one winner Goldikova), Dick Turpin ( Group One winner), Nathaniel ( King George Winner), Roderick o' Conner (Irish guineas winner), Dream Ahead ( 3x Group One winner including the scalp of 13 time Group One winner Goldikova), shall I go on, no I don't think I will bother.

Come again soon

When you have finished with your childish comments,give me concrete evidence that says one horse is better than the other over 10f.

Brigadier Gerard beat Mill Reef 3 lengths, first time out. Mill Reef had already won the Greenham and went on to win the Derby, Elipse, King George, Arc, Prix Ganay and Coronation Cup. Now that is form.

It is Brigust and Mill Reef is rated lower than Frankel!!
Just cannot have that.

That last sentence is spot on MM

Agree Budd. I know it was my era but the formbook doesn't lie. Never mind it is all about opinions and I certainly cannot begrudge newer enthusiasts getting excited about the new stars.

One thing I do hope is that HC runs Frankel to his full potential new season. Leaving nothing to be considered. The Brigadier was going to run in the July Cup after winning the Guineas but he had a hard race in the heavy ground at Ascot (St James Palace) so they gave it a swere. He then went on to win the King George. I know its up to the owner but the world is their oyster and they may never get this chance again.

many of his races are run at a crawl and in the guineas he set his own fractions!

circus ran a faster 2f than him over 10f.

he was impressive enough but i dont think the horses behind are as good as everyone thinks.

hes 4 L better than excelebration, thats as good as the horse is. i keep hearing we've only seen a fraction of his talent? i dont know where they get this theory from, the horse goes eyeballs out every race, he won by 4L he other day but he was pushed to his limit and looked vulnerable at the furlong pole, just watch the race!

hes 4 L better than excelebration, simple as.

You say that as if being 4L better than Excelebration is almost a bad thing. Take Frankel out of Saturday's race and Excelebration is an easy winner by nearly just as far over Immortal Verse and that one's a Gr1 winner too.

As for Frankel being pushed to his limit and looking vulnerable at the furlong pole, sorry but those are ridiculous statements, as the Racing Post after race comments seem to support:

closed to lead well over 1f out and soon clear, reminders inside final furlong, ran on powerfully.

Frankel according to the race commentary is 2-3 lengths ahead at the furlong pole.

STS on the snaff

stakey u know i love sts and im all for a reasoned debate, im fighting his corner if only for the purpose of an intelligent and fun debate.

we obviously WILL NEVER know who would win but the form of sea the stars is forever being mocked and its as good as anything. of course if anyone looks hard enough they will invariably find holes but likeweise anyone else.

sts guineas is forever being classed as one of the worst yet there are FAR MORE winners in it than frankels(most of which have struggled to win another race, any race, not even group races, some cant even win handicaps.)

sts had loads of g1 winners behind him.

i keep hearing how great excelebration is, and he is a good horse, no disputing that and if frankel hadnt been around he'd have cleaned up but the fact remains, he was all out to beat RIO DE LA PLATA in france ON HIS FAVOURED SOFT GROUND. then we have a poster 'layboy' GO THRU STS FORM, HE MENTIONS MASTERCRAFTSMAN and says beside it (enough said)?

what does that mean? that he is a donkey? he won the sjp himself and the irish guineas, he also broke the track record along with sts in the juddmonte but he only did these things because the opposition were SOOOOO **** that year

i really wonder about people sometimes. there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to suggest that even mastercraftsman wouldnt have beaten excelebration, none, infact i know who id back!!

again we never know who would have beat who but there are some seriously deluded forumlites who simply dismiss sts form as being carp without actually looking at it and frankels as amazing just because its frankel.  frankel does have good form but as i mentioned, the horse he cant beat by more than 4L all out is the same horse that RIO DE LA PLATA almost beat.

if anything it proves that strict formlines dont always work out to the length like many seem to think they do and that each race has very specific conditions that determines its own unique outcome, some of which the formlines hold up!

yes but there are different degrees on exceptional, and the only way to judge are thru other horses and times!!

frankels times arent as good as sts for example and his time wasnt impressive at the weekend!

Opinions are like a**eholes, everybody's got I. Some people need to get out more,though. 18,000 posts.