Frankel v Sea the Stars

i dont pay attention to comments like that in a reasonable debate busvaldo!! basically it works like this, anyone who doesnt share his opinion is a mug!


facking clowns the lot of them!

Come on brigust1, we are trying to have an amicable debate. That comment was unworthy.

i'm sorry to say if frankel had of run in the champion today he would have been MULLERED!!

hes one of the forum mugs, dont mind him

tbh taipan i dont know what would have happened but what i want to know is, why wasnt he running in it?

ffs WE KNOW hes better than excelabtarion, its BORING! the horse isnt boring, i was dying to see him today but ffs, why is he running in the qeII, why is henry so afraid to race him against other divisions? we know he will stay!

bottler!

simple- to keep him unbeaten

he trains vita nova, midday and- my minds gone blank here, whats that thing new approach destroyed? he KNOWS Frankel wont stay- simples- and so do i[;)]

'As good as the opposition'

how dare you insult sir henry he will race against all kinds of everything next year (do you like what i did there, well themed) and we will see him thrash everything hopefully!

frankel probally hasnt run over longer than a mile this season because the owner has horses to run in the 10f group 1 races

a fair point gazo but were talking about potentially the greatest horse of all time, by not running him in these races may not affect his rating but until he does hes still only champion MILER!

he wont, trust me. i always said with the speed he shows he'll never stay

IM DELIGHTED TO SEE HIM BACK NEXT YR!!ooops caps!

i really thought if he won today he'd be shipped off to stud!! i still feel this might happen!

im a cynic i cant help it!

Evgen, this is not a debate. It's a bunch of guys fawning over what might have been. Ilwab stalks the forum jumping all over anyone who questions STS credentials shouting 6 Group 1's, 6 Group 1's. That isn't reasoned debate.

I like STS but felt he left a lot unsaid. And the Eclipse, give me a break. He beat RVW stylishly. The very same RVW who really never won eff all. So You Think beat Workforce who won the Derby in record time and the Arc. Makes infinately better reading than the STS Eclipse.
So it really isn't a 'debate' it does sound like a self gratification discussion.

And 'no' before you jump all over me I don't think SYT is as as good as STS. Yet.

ILWAB,

I don't think it's right to call him a bottler - I think this is all part of Sir Henry Cecil's master plan and today's run will be the starting point of bringing him on to run at ten furlongs, as he winds down during the winter and then begins his preparations for the 2012 season in the new year.

Brig,how contrite!

I'm not jumping over anybody -  just expressing my opinions and reading those of others. I may not agree with them but I respect that's what people believe.

Good luck to you and enjoy your life.

brigust if you know so much about what horses beat, tell us about what frankel beat? a SUPER DUPER italian or german guineas! woHOOOOOOOOOOOO- not!!!!

brigust1
16 Oct 11 00:27   





Evgen, this is not a debate. It's a bunch of guys fawning over what might have been. Ilwab stalks the forum jumping all over anyone who questions STS credentials shouting 6 Group 1's, 6 Group 1's. That isn't reasoned debate.

I like STS but felt he left a lot unsaid. And the Eclipse, give me a break. He beat RVW stylishly. The very same RVW who really never won eff all. So You Think beat Workforce who won the Derby in record time and the Arc. Makes infinately better reading than the STS Eclipse.
So it really isn't a 'debate' it does sound like a self gratification discussion.

And 'no' before you jump all over me I don't think SYT is as as good as STS. Yet.

will u be quite u clown, i dont just spout that, i always give reasons, times etc...

u just make comments like 'Clueless hand job club' ya facking retard!

and it doesnt make better reading, u turd, syt has been well beat since, as has workforce!! sea the stars remained unbeaten his entire 3 yr old career winning all the best races from 8-12..easily!!the fact that u compare syt and wf to him shows what a mug u really are!!

Sorry, GAZO. Just read your post - excellent point.

yeah, and poor workfoce hails from the this year rancid stoute stable

I've just read what you put, Monkey boy. Why don't you stop waving at busses, get on one and clear off. Your endless, mindless, clueless rantings about STS are based solely on your opinion which, I'll let you know, is absolutely worthless.

The formbook says everything, you should read it. What you think doesn't matter. STS is already slipping down the timeform list so enjoy the moment while you can.

all hail timeform

youll be on about rpr ratings next

of course theyre based on my opinion ya facking retard!!

u talk like youve seen the race and frankel already won!!

fook me u must do your absolute brains on here with that reasoning!


fook me youre a dumb ****!

brigust1
16 Oct 11 00:58   











I've just read what you put, Monkey boy. Why don't you stop waving at busses, get on one and clear off. Your endless, mindless, clueless rantings about STS are based solely on your opinion which, I'll let you know, is absolutely worthless.

The formbook says everything, you should read it. What you think doesn't matter. STS is already slipping down the timeform list so enjoy the moment while you can.




  love it!!

like i give a fack what timefore say!! if he'd been english theyd have rated him 150

rpr's

ahh, sweet! glorifying english numpties

they are just ITCHING to raise frankel higher and higher,theyre laughable!!!

i suppose u dont bother with form study brigust, u just back timeform top rated in every race and clean up[smiley:crazy]

anyway i think we've won this, frankel supporters cant come up with any cold hard facts like we can

Visually Frankel is the greatest horse of the last 40 years and anyone who argues with that is either stupid or auditioning for a Macfly tribute band

VISUALLY- more concrete stuff there, fantastic. such utter cow dung

anyway, i'm off to study some form for tomoro[;)]

herblington
16 Oct 11 01:09   


Visually Frankel is the greatest horse of the last 40 years and anyone who argues with that is either stupid or auditioning for a Macfly tribute band


hes brilliant to watch but there have been equally brilliant performances so to say anyone who argues with that is either stupid or auditioning for a Macfly tribute band is just stupid!

a 100 horse running against an 80 horse would look like sea the stars for fook sake, if you know what i mean[;)]

Frankel is an exceptional miler, but he isn't an all time great until he proves he's got the combination of speed and stamina that the handful of greatest horses had.

If he's a great he'll do it, I hope he does, plus he's got the advantage over a few by having a 4 y/o career and it's extra year to achieve it. We need an Arc or Breeders Cup Classic, and an Eclipse or Irish Champion on the way imo.

youre up late!!

having nightmares about that tom o ryan ride are we

some things can't be unseen unfortunately.

not the best until he meets the best which are not racing in the uk at the moment so would have to race in the breeders cup mabey to show us is he up with the best or in Aus. needed the derby on his cv to be up with the greats ,will be forgotten in a few years  if he dosent make it at stud

^Unlike yourself links!

taipan501 15 Oct 11 22:08 
"The horse is crying out for 1m 2f"- and this is based on what exactly- scrambling over the line in the st james palace

excelebration= a TOP, TOP mile= get a grip, buddy

the horses sea the stars beat in his guineas is the WHO's WHO of top horses

And then

taipan501 15 Oct 11 22:19 
funny what people see, or choose to leave out

If the caps fits and all that.

Maybe the other poster was suggesting Frankel was crying out for 1m 2f based on the fact that he generally settles a lot better now, is a more mature horse and he was pointing out that it takes him ages to pull up after winning now, so he effectively runs the extra distance anyway but you chose to focus on one race from 4 months ago where it's almost universally accepted that the type of ride he was given on the day was a big factor in how he finished the race.

Why do you only focus on the horses behind Frankel in the 2000 by the way? What about those behind him in all of his other races and the races they had previously won or went on to win? Horses like Canford Cliffs, Rio De la Plata, Rajsaman, Nathaniel, Treasure Beach, Roderic O'Connor, Dream Ahead, Dubawi Gold and all of Excelebration, Immortal Verse, Dick Turpin, Poet's Voice are Gr1 winners that were behind him on Saturday. Even if the 2000 wasn't the greatest field ever, he didn't just beat them he pulverised them anyway.

Excelebaration would be on a run of 7 wins from his last 8 races were it not for Frankel, is a Gr1 winner, won 5 of his 9 starts and been 2nd twice and 3rd once when beaten by Frankel, has gone off favourite 6 out of 9 times and the 3 times he wasn't was when Frankel was.

Sea The Stars was a top notch horse but where's this rule then that you have to win over multiple distances to be considered the best? If a footballer plays in one position and another is more versatile and can play in a few, does that alone make the versatile player better or do you judge it on ability and the manner in which they perform their job?

Talking of STS in the Eclipse though, I actually thought he was in danger of being beaten by Rip van Winkle when he ranges alongside to challenge and then seemed to drop off a bit and many at the time said he shirked it or STS pulled out a bit more but what actually happened was Kinane accidentally hits RvW over the head with his whip.

so frankel is a great miler and sea the stars is great over multiple distances,still think el gran senor would stuff them both over 10f

You guys crack me up------talking about horses like they are some different type of human athlete, but  with four legs--------they are simply just animals-----yes,ofcourse they are given silly names, and have men dressed in coloured shirts on their backs to make it all more interesting for gamblers, but in essence we could just as easily have cow racing,---- give them all names, put jockeys on 'em, and then the fastest cow could then be hero worshipped too by all the gullible --------------"Lady Daisy" might be a 5 furlong super star----"Lulubelle" become the champion miler----and "Black and White Rocket" be the best stayer-----we could take their photographs, and study their form, and talk about them on TV-----------honestly, you couldn't make it up !

1m - 50/50
1m2f - Sea the Stars
1m4f - Sea the Stars

You claim Sir that all this

this eulogising  and anthropomorphizing of race horses is  ridiculous
and would  it seems be quite happy  to replace
say , the  prancing  horse emblem  used by Ferrari
a prancing  COW !!!  do you propose that said COW  be black or white in colour  ??
Let us now turn to the Parthenon friezes  which as you  know
depict centaurs engaged in epic battle with other centaurs   ...  these  centaurs  may just as well  have been  half Man   half  COW instead  of half man half horse.......... is this  the gist of your  argument ?  would not one COW  engaged in mortal combat  with another  COW look ridiculous ????

I think you jest  ha ha ....now answer this question...  how far do you think  Frankel  could stay in front
before   STS  got to him ...is it   9, 10 ,11, or twelve furlongs ??

would each of the above options depend on ...the  ground
the way the race was run
The quality of the respective  Jockeys
The track
The early pace of the race

I hope you will answer these questions, otherwise I shall assume you have more interest in COWS   and belong on  a COW forum  where you may engage with like minded individuals

Mac----LOL--nice one---life's too short hey ?----just singin' my favourite song----Mooooooon River  !

Mick Kinane is on record as saying George Washington is the best he's ridden so over a mile I would say:

1st - George Washington
2nd - Sea The Stars
3rd - Frankel

I'm a big HRAC fan, but since we are talking hypothetically, and not doing Tom Queally down, but how would Frankel have fared if the jock was Pat Eddery, Cauthen, Fallon or Piggott ?

Mick did say that George was as good as anything he ever ridden, but didn't he say that after the QEII in 2006?

Viva Pataca Joined: 16 Dec 07
Replies: 733 17 Oct 11 11:27 
Mick Kinane is on record as saying George Washington is the best he's ridden so over a mile I would say:

1st - George Washington
2nd - Sea The Stars
3rd - Frankel



is this a joke?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Jmz4izVGg

eitherway mick never rode frankel so what micks greatest horse is , is irrelevent but he definitely said sts was the best, look at the youtube vid, he said he rode good ones but this fella is magnificant!

richgit Joined: 13 Feb 02
Replies: 22 17 Oct 11 11:09 
Mac----LOL--nice one---life's too short hey ?----just singin' my favourite song----Mooooooon River  !


i laughed out loud at this

Mick Kinane is on record as saying George Washington is the best he's ridden

When he retired Kinane said STS was the best he'd ridden.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Jmz4izVGg


he says it here!

LOL--nice one---life's too short hey ?----just singin' my favourite song----Mooooooon River  !

It was a very funny joke ,but you must not encourage these Cow people
they are more numerous than you think  , Cow racing without  whips is their real agenda ....by golly  I am telling you MR Busses !!!!

"I've ridden some good ones, but I've not ridden any better than him (George Washington)".

There can be no disputing that - they are Mick's exact words.

For what it's worth, Keiren Fallon also said George was the best he'd ridden too, and A P O'Brien said he's the best he'd ever trained.

but that was before he rode sts[smiley:crazy]

aob said SYT is the best hes ever had

just look at the youtube video i posted and all will be revealed!!

Review George Washington's Guineas again . Sure it looked good at the time , but he beat a bad Derby winner (2nd) , a maiden only winner (3rd) and the rest were either no good or sprinters . And he only won once after Newmarket , one race  from many tries ( a very ordinary renewal of the QEII ) which is something his fans tend to forget.

Mick must have either been drunk when he made that comment or he was following Coolmore's hype-everything-to-the-max line.


But if you follow the clock instead of your eyes , the best Guineas winners over the last 2 decades or so have been Zafonic , King's Best and Frankel. GW isn't even remotely close ,imo.

Both great over multiple distances

STS 7f- 14f ( if he had been tried imo )

Frankel 6f-10f ( if he is tried )

STS ran at the "classic" distances of 8f 10f and 12f. Whats certain is that STS was better at 8f than Frankel would be at 12f.

George should have won two BC Classics. First time, Invasor battered him on the home turn as he knew he was his only danger. In 2007, George couldn't swim but Curlin and Street Sense - luckily for them - could.

Fallon rode him as if he was the best he was ridden and more in the Moulin and Moore rode everything to sleep in that year's Eclipse. Why did Heffernan not bring GW to the standside, nobody knows.

Kinane has said George is the best he's ridden, when he said it is hardly relevant.

Jockeys get nominations when they win classics that is why Lester had so many 'best ever'. Can be worth quite a lot of money to them for a short while.

Viva Pataca Joined: 16 Dec 07
Replies: 735 17 Oct 11 14:29 
George should have won two BC Classics. First time, Invasor battered him on the home turn as he knew he was his only danger. In 2007, George couldn't swim but Curlin and Street Sense - luckily for them - could.

Fallon rode him as if he was the best he was ridden and more in the Moulin and Moore rode everything to sleep in that year's Eclipse. Why did Heffernan not bring GW to the standside, nobody knows.

Kinane has said George is the best he's ridden, when he said it is hardly relevant.


are u fishing?

ILWAB, STS was a few months old when George won the QEII so you can't say Mick wasn't including STS, he prob would off sat on him by then.

well when u put it that way!!

i retract my last comment!

Kinane has said George is the best he's ridden, when he said it is hardly relevant.

fishing expedition?

Tough call over that trip as we have yet 2 see Frankel over 10f.
For my money over a mile, Frankel would be 2 gd for STS.
2 great champions of there generations, but like all the other ones in the past (Sea Bird,Dancing Brave,The Brigadier & co) it would not be easy 2 tell who was the tops.
In my time involved in our great sport(early 80s) the best i have seen are; Dancing Brave(and he prob always will be, as he was the 1 that got me really hooked on racing, a Sunday i will never forget)
Dayjur is the best sprinter for me, tho the new Aussie sprint mare BC does look a bit special to me.
At 1mile El Gran Senor, Zilzal, Miesque and Frankel (80s to now)
Middle Dist; The Brave, Shergar, Sea The Stars.
Lets hope the mighty Frankel stays sound and remains unbeaten nxt
season over 1m/10f and he will go down as 1 of the all time greats.

No doubt in my mind that Frankel already is an all time great. The best miler I've ever seen. See the stars was an exceptional horse who idled in front imo so therefore hard to judge his exact ability. However over 1m it's obvious Frankel would beat him. Lines of form through Rip van winkle and Canford Cliffs suggest it but more importantly so does the style of the performances. We'll have to wait and see with Frankel over 1m2f but I've seen nothing to suggest he won't stay and be just as good so I'd still favour him. However, the main thing is that we appreciate 2 of the greatest horses of the last 40 years rather than knock them.

Alanc1 , they would say Frankel is better than Dancing Brave. One is no longer with us the other gets more valuable if more people agree with them. Or am i cynical ?

Is that the Hcap prices with Sea The Stars getting a 4 length start? Only possible way a sane person would consider backing it at that price. Sea the stars dominated a weak erea. Sea the stars twice beat Fame and Glory now thats plodding round winning monkey Group races over 2 miles. No contest Frankel is far superior, Excelebration would beat Sea the Stars!

Personally dont think Frankel has faced anything anywhere near as good as horses like STS and DB were.Not his fault of course,he can only beat what is up against him and hes done that very well,but i doubt he will ever face horses of the calibre of those just mentioned,so pointless comparing them really,as no way of knowing.
And certainly pointless getting all irate about it.
FWIW,in answer to the question i would go for STS as he is proven over the distance at the top level,but not a selection with great confidence cos Franlel could go on and prove himself over 10f next season,and he looks to me like he will be ok over an extra 2f.
No way of knowing though as i said.

At least El Gran Senor can never be knocked on what he beat ! ( Chief Singer , Lear Fan , Rainbow Quest ) Dancing Brave beat a good one too , Green Desert.

Personally would not want to knock any of these horses.
They have all proved to be great horses and El Gran Senor was another in that bracket.
Frankel is still racing so probably best to wait and see what he can achieve.At this stage he is a very good miler,maybe one of the best we have seen,but that is it right now.

Personally would not want to knock any of these horses.
They have all proved to be great horses and El Gran Senor was another in that bracket.
Frankel is still racing so probably best to wait and see what he can achieve.At this stage he is a very good miler,maybe one of the best we have seen,but that is it right now.

Buddeliea what are you talking about, I will do you a favour and advise you find another hobby. STS foes - Mastercraftsmen (enough said), Fame and Glory (possible for Cheltenham lol), Rip Van Winkle (laughed at by Canford), Delegator (enough Said). Frankels foes - Canford Cliffs ( multiple Group One winner), Excelebration ( dual group one winner), Immortal Verse ( beat the 13 time group one winner Goldikova), Dick Turpin ( Group One winner), Nathaniel ( King George Winner), Roderick o' Conner (Irish guineas winner), Dream Ahead ( 3x Group One winner including the scalp of 13 time Group One winner Goldikova), shall I go on, no I don't think I will bother.

Come again soon

To be a true great he has to be thought better than the others over a mile as its clear the middle distance greats would definitely be superior at 12 furlongs. Hes all speed really and its great that hes likely to win a G1 over 10f.

When you have finished with your childish comments,give me concrete evidence that says one horse is better than the other over 10f.

Bit like saying Usain Bolt is overrated because he doesn't stay the 400m.

Brigadier Gerard beat Mill Reef 3 lengths, first time out. Mill Reef had already won the Greenham and went on to win the Derby, Elipse, King George, Arc, Prix Ganay and Coronation Cup. Now that is form.

Layboy,
Not surprising you are struggling,as there is no concrete evidence.

Naming horses that Frankel has beaten over a mile and naming horses that STS beat over further proves nothing when trying to work out the best at 10f.

Just thought i would do you a favour as you kindly did for me.

It is Brigust and Mill Reef is rated lower than Frankel!!
Just cannot have that.

Ridiculous comments about both of these horses. They are the 2 best horses I have seen. I'm not actually sure who would win it tbh & I think in the same circumstance STS could have done what Frankel has this season but probably less impressively. Could Frankel have done what Sea The Stars did though? I don't know it's all guess work so you shouldn't play down on either of their achievements.

That last sentence is spot on MM

Doubt it will stop the knockers though!!

Agree Budd. I know it was my era but the formbook doesn't lie. Never mind it is all about opinions and I certainly cannot begrudge newer enthusiasts getting excited about the new stars.

One thing I do hope is that HC runs Frankel to his full potential new season. Leaving nothing to be considered. The Brigadier was going to run in the July Cup after winning the Guineas but he had a hard race in the heavy ground at Ascot (St James Palace) so they gave it a swere. He then went on to win the King George. I know its up to the owner but the world is their oyster and they may never get this chance again.

Wouldn't say he wouldn't beat STS over a mile but there is something weird in frankel's form: He hasn't won a race at a faster pace than 12 seconds/furlong.

many of his races are run at a crawl and in the guineas he set his own fractions!

circus ran a faster 2f than him over 10f.

he was impressive enough but i dont think the horses behind are as good as everyone thinks.

hes 4 L better than excelebration, thats as good as the horse is. i keep hearing we've only seen a fraction of his talent? i dont know where they get this theory from, the horse goes eyeballs out every race, he won by 4L he other day but he was pushed to his limit and looked vulnerable at the furlong pole, just watch the race!

hes 4 L better than excelebration, simple as.

*final two furlongs.

You say that as if being 4L better than Excelebration is almost a bad thing. Take Frankel out of Saturday's race and Excelebration is an easy winner by nearly just as far over Immortal Verse and that one's a Gr1 winner too.

As for Frankel being pushed to his limit and looking vulnerable at the furlong pole, sorry but those are ridiculous statements, as the Racing Post after race comments seem to support:

closed to lead well over 1f out and soon clear, reminders inside final furlong, ran on powerfully.

Frankel according to the race commentary is 2-3 lengths ahead at the furlong pole.

Layboy Joined: 07 Dec 10
Replies: 190 17 Oct 11 17:05 
Is that the Hcap prices with Sea The Stars getting a 4 length start? Only possible way a sane person would consider backing it at that price. Sea the stars dominated a weak erea. Sea the stars twice beat Fame and Glory now thats plodding round winning monkey Group races over 2 miles. No contest Frankel is far superior, Excelebration would beat Sea the Stars!




excelebration can barely beat rio de la plata ffs. he is nothing special and theres nothing in his form that says so. hes a bloody good horse but hes overhyped because hes the only horse 'to give frankel a race',

did anyone see his race against rio de la plata? he was all out to beat him. what else has he beat? beacon lodge? yeah he beat him by 6L, beacon lodge is a cant win a group 2.

deluded comments!

mastercraftsman would have beaten him ffs!

STS on the snaff

I reckon It's not easy to run a guineas below 1:36 without pacemakers, but let's see it other way round. All the horses that got beat that day GOT a pacemaker (frankel himself) and they weren't able to run below 1:38. That shows in my opinion that the opposition wasn't that great.

stakey u know i love sts and im all for a reasoned debate, im fighting his corner if only for the purpose of an intelligent and fun debate.

we obviously WILL NEVER know who would win but the form of sea the stars is forever being mocked and its as good as anything. of course if anyone looks hard enough they will invariably find holes but likeweise anyone else.

sts guineas is forever being classed as one of the worst yet there are FAR MORE winners in it than frankels(most of which have struggled to win another race, any race, not even group races, some cant even win handicaps.)

sts had loads of g1 winners behind him.

i keep hearing how great excelebration is, and he is a good horse, no disputing that and if frankel hadnt been around he'd have cleaned up but the fact remains, he was all out to beat RIO DE LA PLATA in france ON HIS FAVOURED SOFT GROUND. then we have a poster 'layboy' GO THRU STS FORM, HE MENTIONS MASTERCRAFTSMAN and says beside it (enough said)?

what does that mean? that he is a donkey? he won the sjp himself and the irish guineas, he also broke the track record along with sts in the juddmonte but he only did these things because the opposition were SOOOOO **** that year

i really wonder about people sometimes. there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to suggest that even mastercraftsman wouldnt have beaten excelebration, none, infact i know who id back!!

again we never know who would have beat who but there are some seriously deluded forumlites who simply dismiss sts form as being carp without actually looking at it and frankels as amazing just because its frankel.  frankel does have good form but as i mentioned, the horse he cant beat by more than 4L all out is the same horse that RIO DE LA PLATA almost beat.

if anything it proves that strict formlines dont always work out to the length like many seem to think they do and that each race has very specific conditions that determines its own unique outcome, some of which the formlines hold up!

Why does it matter what the opposition is like if a horse's own performance is exceptional anyway? If a top class horse beats other good horses then obviously that adds a positive to the horse's overall standing but that doesn't mean if a another top class horse beats lesser horses that it's still not a top horse.

Generous is probably one of the most impressive Derby winners I have seen with his 5L victory but then when in the Irish Derby and up against a better standard of opponent in Suave Dancer he "only" won by 3L. Frankel won the 2000 by 6L but then when up against better opposition he's again "only" beaten the likes of Canford Cliffs and Excelebration by 5L and 4L.

Frankel's 2000 win was practically a solo trial because nothing else could go with him and yet Dubawi Gold could run on through beaten off horses to be 2nd (and do so again in the Irish 2000) but then when he tried to stay with Frankel at Royal Ascot it was other horses running passed him when he was a beaten horse once seen off by Frankel.

yes but there are different degrees on exceptional, and the only way to judge are thru other horses and times!!

frankels times arent as good as sts for example and his time wasnt impressive at the weekend!

actually im not 100% on frankels times but i dont think hes even broken one track record yet!

Opinions are like a**eholes, everybody's got I. Some people need to get out more,though. 18,000 posts.

i dont look too much at times but they do help get a grasp on the ability of a horse if a horse keeps posting fast times!

how else are we gonna compare ability from diff eras on individual performance is we dont factor who horses beat and the times of the race?

how do we know theyre exceptional then? just by what we saw? what did we see? maybe the only reason we saw something special was because the rest of the field were carp!

u have to atleast factor in other horses, cant be judged on their own, how else would we know if theyre good or not?

original harry!![smiley:crazy]

Maybe it's worth considering that Frankel was by the time of the 2000 Guineas already being spoke of as being a potential superstar and went of at a price of 1/2F on the day and that might had caused certain other horses like Excelebration to have swerved the race.

Another thing to consider is that although Excelebration beat Rio De La Plata by 1½L and with Rajsaman another ½L behind in the French race, Frankel had those last two named horses 7½l and 10L back in 3rd and 4th in the Sussex Stakes. So put Frankel a 4L winner in that same French race and there would not be much difference to how far he would have beaten the 2 other horse there than he did in the Sussex, allowing for some easing once they knew they were beaten anyway.

Rajsaman and Rio De La Plata then went on the be 1-2 at the Arc meeting too when in a close finish.