Might I refer the jury to the phrase 'nothing is definite.' Might I also encourage you to differentiate between the manager and the boss. The manager responds generously to media questions. The boss has the final say.

Very well put 'Sandown'. The trainer leading punters up the garden path so close to final decs is lacking integrity and respect for the sport and punters.

In my view the Derby has long since stopped being the greatest race on the British calendar.  It might be the best but the Derby long ago slid down any  scale of greatness.  In the last twenty five years only three winners have gone on to win the Arc.  Not a great ratio.

Am I right in thinking Ballydoyle is separated into colts/fillies then further by 2yos/elders? Barring SMB and BB (possibly) the 3yo colts have been underwhelming to say the least.  Further disappointments at Curragh tonight to go along with the English 2000 Gns trials, the 2000 itself, the English Derby trials and many other races outside those.  Now, after workouts/blood tests the yard has pulled all their horses from the Derby bar one.  Is there a problem in that part of the stable?  This is a big departure from their normal MO.

thats why obrien not in the same planet as sir henry as trainer or gentleman

Dettori now rides John Leeper.

Caveat Emptor. (the principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made.)

Yes, I am fully aware of the risks of the AP market, thank you very much. I have been doing this for enough time and for enough money. AP remains my biggest winning area, so I have no illusions. A crime is not reduced or even increased by comparison with other crimes. They are irrelevant to this argument.

Yes, I am fully aware that AOB takes orders but we are talking about a man who might be said to be the best trainer with the best horses anywhere. He is fully aware that his remarks are carefully listened to so he has no excuse for not being aware of the consequences of what he says and must avoid being ambiguous if anyone should.. He may not care but he should. It should be clear that he intends to make no decision until a decision is made.

As I said, I doubt that very large sums are involved, but fellas, we are talking principles here and like justice, principles matter. I would consider that BF and others would score a moral win should they choose to void all bets both back and lay. As for BM's they too could treat this as an ex-gratia payment and create a positive PR win.

good post sandown

The period in question Headmaster is just over 24 hours. I am not suggesting that bets be voided before AOB's statement nor after. Yes, there will be layers who acted in good faith and plenty who didn''t who knew more than the average Joe. We are talking about the shop window here, the Derby for goodness sake. Neither side loses with a void bet, merely the layers opportunity to profit from an injustice. Whether BF accede to the reqest or not , an official view needs to be expressed. This will get more negative coverage if they and others do not act.

why should bets be voided when they still
come under A/Post?
Has Obrien broke any rules,here?

I'd HD with Shishkin, and I'd 'lay' aplenty but never anticipated this reason for a probable no-show. Waxing lyrical just on sunday and tuesday (as reported) about his well-being of HD and others, and possibility of 5 runners then suddenly saying probable one representative only is nothing but misleading and insulting to backers and sport.

Great news about Dettori.

Perhaps you are unaware LH that principles were and have been very much at the heart of betting over the centuries. Honouring a bet when no paper is involved, with credit betting for example, never welshing on money owed whether its to a bookmaker or, shaking hands on a deal. Principles LH. Very much something to do with punting even if today a betting debt is recoverable in law. If anyone profited from the knowledge that all bar one horse would be withdrawn, then that is anti -integrity and would be called out by the JC if the culprits were to be identified. More likely, it's simply a case of AOB being a great trainer but a naïve man.

Sandown, if you don't like losing money on non-runners, why didn't you wait until the day of the race market?
Anyhow, Bets on this race won't be voided, because no criminal activity or market manipulation is apparent.  High Definition did NOT drift out to 25.0 or 30.0 before O'Briens announcement. I think he was still 2nd fav at the time.

Agree entirely with Sandown's thoughts above.

It's laughable that people are condemning ante-post betting rather than Aidan O'Brien.

the lads also sold a dummy regarding love in the coronation cup . i didnt fall for that one , but , they want egging next time their in the winners enclosure !

exactly who are the lads, if their his bosses thats disrespectful to call them lads id say,, i remember calling john mcgovern ex notts forest european champion years back as john, i was a trialist at his club at the time , he gave me a right bollocking

surely the lads are mr magnier , mr tabor , derrick smith and son and i think jp is in there .  though hes obviously a nh tycoon i suspect hes amogst their number

i remember a few years ago there was speculation that aob would leave ballydoyle and david omeara would take over . i reckon aob will be gone next season over this

OK so it's not the JC, I'm stuck in the past. Why are you splitting hairs though Headmaster, it's a poor defence and makes not the slightest difference to my argument.

I'm well aware that these guys are so damnned rich they haven't direcltly benefitted from this scam, but scam it is, even if it wan't intentional. They don't give a thought or consideration for the rest of us who just play the horses mostly for the love of ,but hopefully for some financial return. In fact, it's the total unconcern for others involved in the whole sport that sticks in my craw. If anyone was misled by AOB's very bullish comments into backing any of these horses after the wholly misleading comments, then that's not apparently anyone;s fault but their own.


It wasn't too many years ago that the AP market was huge and created tremendous publicity for a long while before a race but the life has gone out of it entirely now. Bookmakers first closed credit accounts which avoided backers having cash tied up for long periods, then they closed customer accounts for those who managed to win even though they claimed it was a loss leader. Now, even owners are doing their bit to finish off the AP market.

And for those who think that I am grumbling over nothing, I can assure you that I have experienced far worse than this in the past. How about putting a few grand on a Derby runner the day before it injured itself on the gallops? No problem, apart from some swearing from me, take it on the chin, that's the risk of the AP. But this is human intervention and not luck. Anyone who has been mislead by this will think three times before ever getting involved in AP betting in the future so the death of AP by a thousand cuts continues.

Just suck it up say those of you who don't object for whatever reason. As I have said, it's the absence of concern for the customers who matter, the racegoers, the punters, the enthusiasts. They, we, matter to this sport. This is not just any old race.  IT'S THE DERBY!!!