Horse Antepost
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Epsom Derby 2021
Epsom Derby 2021
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Principles? What has been at the heart of betting "over the centuries" is hard cash put down and the rules standing. Nothing else counts.
You pay in advance. If you win you get a return, if you don't you lose. Bets are "honoured" and not a principle in sight. Rules! And none have been broken here. None. Distasteful it might be but no rules have been broken. |
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So that is an excuse, is it? Not my responsibility, it's the owners. There are any number of trainers who don't have the final say but still manage to act honourably just as there were in the past. No doubt many in the past and today will still deliberately mislead for financial reasons and AOB is unlikely to be in that camp. What does that make him, then? Naive? Stupid? Uncaring? Just following orders? By comparison, Gosden is far the better man, for example. He always gives a straight answer to a straight question, but no answer is far better than a misleading answer.
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they've decided to run 1 horse,get over it.
No rules have been broken. |
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yes again we back 2 year olds for the following years classics, yes its a bit old fashioned now i suppose, but weve done it for the love of the sport, and hopefully one day we might get it right yes once in a few years perhaps, but this lot doesnt care one iota about anyone but themselves, they dont even love the sport, its greed greed and more greed, anyway ive said it before theyve ruined the sport, but at least i can remember the great days of cecil, harwood , and vincent, hern etc
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I agree that no rules have been broken as such, as far as we know.And no0ne is responsible for our actions other than oursleves.But you are completely missing the point HL, that this behaviour is not in the best interests of the sport, if it is to continue to thrive in the futrue. Today, image matters. If we are to attract a new generation of racing enthusiasts this kind of thing has to go, and transparency has to be front and back if trust is to be created and not shattered, between the professionals, the race fans and the media.
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Curtis confirmed aboard Gear Up.
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Never been much of an AP man myself so no hard or fast opinion. Back to the race, Bolshoi's last race form has taken a few 'knocks'. I know he won like a smart one, quickened up stylishly and should improve for further but he is evens and the form on face value has been tripped up a bit. Lough Derg finished 5 lengths back today in a listed 10f, Taipain 6 or so lengths group 3 next time 10f. Fernando Vichi runs tomorrow over 14f. Mac Swiney winning the Irish 2000 guineas on Heavy ground next time is here nor there really. If Mohaafeth was trained by O'Brien, based on his last run, he'd be 8/13.
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Sold on Mohaafeth. A win for Shadwell with the recent passing of Mr. Maktoum. Sired by Frankel. The stars are aligning.
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Ok Sandown. I trust that you believe in your principles and thus promise never to have a bet with you, in case on principle, you don;t honour it. I also sincerely hope you will stop whingeing.
Ante post: If they run you have a bet, if they fail to start/don't make the post, you don't. They're mine - and the rest of the world's. It has ever been thus. Even when punters joined racing anew fifty, sixty years ago it was thus. And over the last fifty, sixty years racing's image hasn't suffered one iota. Newcomers to racing nowadays will just have to learn like all the rest of us did. If we ever give way to your kind of wokeism racing will be on the same slippery slope as the rest of the world. |
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Right, HL.
So, the Derby is just another race not a showcase for UK racing as I mistakenly thought it was. Trainers like O'Brien, Bolger, Baffert should be appreciated for being totally honest in their public utterances. No-one should ever complain about being stiffed because it's whinging and we should accept that like the men (and women) we are. The media should never criticise trainers, jockeys and owners for being less than truthful whenever it suits them for fear of losing out on contacts. Sportsmanship, integrity and moral principles are for the weak and we should all be ruthless and dog eat dog in life.(Lunch is for wimps?) Good business practice excludes ever sometimes seeing when something could be done to ameliorate some obvious injustice. Rules is rules. No exceptions. No principles. If this adds up to your philosophy, I pity you. All that said, I have made my point. I have moved on, life goes on. End of. |
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12 left in
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One day you say six horses are running with no ifs and buts. The next day you say that only 1 horse is running with a load of different targets for the others. It would be inconceivable that he doesn't put out major statements without first consulting the lads (that's the term he uses himself) so the only conclusion you can take is that for whatever reason he has deliberately misled the racing world, and primarily punters. To suggest he hasn't broken any rules is little more than a cop out.
You would have to have the emotional capacity of a dalek not to see this story is beyond just rule breaking. Of course we know nobody in the media will give him the proper grilling he deserves. |
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Can you point me to the quote that said he's running six horses? He's repeatedly stated Van Gogh is more likely for France and Sir Lamorak was likley to wait for Ascot. We knew The Mediterranean wasn't running two days ago. HD has very publicly been giving him problems all spring. I can only conclude there are a lot of Kyprios fans on here.
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I've got no sympathy for Ante Post backers. Essentially its like going blind at cards. Reckless and fuelled by greed. Don't gift your money to bookmakers who have more insider information from stables than 99% of punters. Wait for "NRNB".
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AP can't win whatever. He runs six and gets accused of tactical entries to hinder the opposition. He runs one, gives the opposition a much better chance of getting a clear run, and he's conned the punters. No he hasn't- Ante Post Punters have cocked up. But what he has done is told punters what his best chance of winning the Epsom Derby is, and given his other horses the chance to run their hearts out elsewhere and win. He's also given punters the chance to back the withdrawals in their next races (not Ante Post!!)
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Can you point me to the quote that said he's running six horses?
you'd be pushed to find evidence of him ever saying a horse is running before the day of the race in question |
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Ballydoyle's ploy of keeping half a dozen runners in the race when they did not intend to run them excluded other horses from the Derby.
Then they withdraw the half dozen and get a smaller field. A smaller field means less pace, and a better chance for a horse that can quicken. I hope there is an end to end gallop. |
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Hang on, he withdrew them at the final withdrawal stage didn't he???
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So by my reckoning the "other" horses you say could have run also withdrew at the final stage? So which horses did THEY stop from running
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Ballydoyle REGULARLY run a handful of runners in the big races. On the ONE occasion they decide at the 48 declaration stage ONE has an outstanding chance and their other hotpot will probably benefit from another few weeks, and they are confident they don't need a pacemaker people are up in arms. Don't forget horses can go wrong any day so its prudent to keep options open until the very last minute for them.
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the people on here who state Obrien is not and
did'nt break any rules,are stating facts. Thats is A/Post betting. |
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Anybody know the draw?
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Got it.
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Got it.
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The draw does not matter anymore.
About ten years ago the BHA stared filling the stalls in a haphazard fashion. You do not know where the stalls will be positioned, or how many horses in each stalls machine until you see them entering the stalls. If you do not believe me look at the start each year on Youtube. |
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Adayar 1
Bolshoi Ballet 9 Gear Up 6 Hurricane Lane 5 John Leeper 12 Mac Swiney 8 Mohaafeth 4 Mojo Star 10 One Ruler 11 Southern Light 3 Third Realm 2 Youth Spirit 7 |
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Fwiw if we had a field of 18 as I believe most spectators would like, then the draw would be very important.
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no winner from stall one in last 19 years think draw does matter
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So AP O Brien is now somehow involved in keeping other horses out and of also manipulating the draw? lol.
What Coolemore have done, on the face of it, is disgusting but O Brien did suggest that plans weren;t finalised and that one or any may not run at Epsom. Instantly that would have had me holding on to my money until I knew who. Someone on ere suggested that such an "ungentlemanly" behaviour would never have been contemplated by Gosden or Stoute. Oh Yeah? When did they last have six, seven or eight horses entered in a blue riband classic. never. So how can we know what they would do? For me the bottom line is simple. "The lads" employ and pay O Brien - he does what he is told. |
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Your "stat" does not apply now (about stall 1 or any of the stall positions) as the BHA / starter changed things in 2011.
All your stat pre 2011 is irrelevant. |
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Imagine Bobby the punter. Fancies one strongly at 50's for the Derby, which is two weeks away. Gets his dosh, hits the High Street, writes out his bet, and hands it over to the assistant in Badcrooks. He/she looks at the bet, looks at him and says
Asst:"Sorry sir this is an ante post bet and we have rules to follow - can you please wait a minute until I phone head office.". Bobby, who has instantly taken the hump: - "Yeah? What are those then"? Asst: "Well ante post bets mean punters lose their money if, for whatever reason, their selection doesn't make it to post. Are you aware of that"? Bobby: Yes, of course I'm aware of that. Now come on - I want the price and there's no reason I can't get it". A queue builds up behind Bobby. Asst: "I'm sorry sir, it's not as simple as that. We have principles to follow here and you must provide a signed form stating that you know the rules and will accept if your horse doesn't actually run. For whatever reason." Bobby: "When was this c rap brought in? I'm not signing any form. Come on you;re obliged to take my bet - get on with it before I miss the price"! Asst: "I'm sorry sir, we have principles and in line with the new "integrity of racing" directive designed to aid the p.r. of the sport, in which we are now involving all punters in taking an active part in, and after several complaints about trainers withdrawing their horses without warning, we now are obliged to have all punters informed and inducted in the new "integrity" rules, which means you and everybody else who wants an ante-post bet must give us their guarantee that no legal action will be taken against Badcrooks in the event of their selection not starting in the race and that you will not demand a refund, for whatever reason, particularly if your nose is out of joint over something we cannot control". Now six people are fuming in the queue wanting their dog bets on at Swindon. "Come on - they're going in here mate"! Bobby - raging: " What kind of a fcking place is this? A guy just wants a bet and he;s got to fill in forms. Stick your principles and your ante-post up your Arsenal". |
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probably a reason for leaving 6 in is to attract potential owners into buying a share of a horse running in the derby
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I've savers on Bolshoi Ballet (and Mac Swiney) despite AP on HD with Shishkin. But, I hope Bolshoi Ballet gets stuffed on saturday. Fore sure I'll NEVER back any Coolmore charges AP ever again.
I think Coolmore is as deadly as Covid ie indiscriminate and deliberately misleading punters. I also think annihilation and demise of future AP betting has developed momentum as a result. Bettors beware: An ocean of salt must be considered for any PR from that quarter. |
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if Obrien pulled out Bolshoi Ballet and
only run High Definition people would be singing from a different hymn sheet. |
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If Bolshoi Ballet and High Definition are fit run them. It's a competition that's what sport is about. I hope Mac Swiney scoops the pot.
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Good take penzance - I hadn't thought of that one.
My mate just advised me that Fernando Vichi, beaten six lengths by Bolshoi in the Derby Trial, just won at Leops., beating The Mediterranean. Presumably a pointer to Bolshoi's chance in the big race. |
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After the latest withdrawals today I fully expected Hurricane Lane to be around the 7/1 mark. I'm slightly perturbed you can still get 10s on here.
Anybody care to point out what I may be missing? I'm confident it will stay and Appleby has a 41% strike rate in the last fortnight. I have to back it and my only dilemma is win only or w/p. |
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* Plus it's the only unbeaten horse in the field.
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After the latest withdrawals today I fully expected Hurricane Lane to be around the 7/1 mark. I'm slightly perturbed you can still get 10s on here.
Anybody care to point out what I may be missing? I'm confident it will stay and Appleby has a 41% strike rate in the last fortnight. Think everyone must have seen A P OBrien comments re High Definitions run at York. It was touch and go whether it ran, and Ryan Moore "looked after it". Even so it was making up ground hand over fist on Hurricane Lane final 2f and another 2f it would, imo of course, have been soundly beaten. Even so OBrien is wisely giving it more time so it will be his number 1 contender for the Irish Derby (unless of course Bolshoi Ballet wins the English Derby without being extended) The fact Buick has chosen your fancy is obviously a positive for many but I think One Ruler will finish in front of it. Stable jockeys do choose the wrong horse.....Ryan Moore seems to do it regularly and it wouldn't be the first time for Buick either. Its all down to opinions  Do you think it would have beaten High Definition over 12f at York? |
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Sorry I meant to highlight the first two lines which are what I was commenting about
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