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Pinatubo
Pinatubo
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Of course you judge the fastest time in Europe over 3 furlongs? More nonsense.
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They put a man on the moon 50 years ago. In 2019 it isn't such a hard task for humans to work out what time it takes to run a 140 performance over 5f on good ground and what time it should take over 1m, etc. It really isn't. In fact they've been doing it for more than 50 years. Unfortunately you do not seem able to comprehend the subject of standard times whatsoever.
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I don't know why I waste my time talking to you because you are just one arrogant, clueless individual trying to make out you are superior to everyone else on this forum when the truth is but you clearly are not.
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Keep living in your fantasy land Figgis it is where you belong.
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^^
Just put him on "ignore" like most have; he's arrogant, clueless and a narcissist - one for the health professional. |
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You can fool yourself as long as you like Figgis
Brigust, if someone has a bias towards a horse then would you agree that there will be a reason, connection or motivation? I made small amounts on Frankel as a 2yo, lost money on a double figure ante post bet on him after Doncaster for the Derby, and never made a bean on him afterwards. Actually I opposed him in his Guineas on value grounds remembering past hotpots that failed to train on. I also backed Excelebration against him in the QE11 thinking well any horse can go over the top at the end of a season. Hardly great reasons for me to form a bond with the horse. On the other hand when someone with a connection to a great racehorse from the past goes for years on a one man crusade, writing letters to the press, instantly popping up on any thread that gives the horse a favourable mention, accusing people of collusion, concocting conspiracy theories about all the ratings firms, etc, to try to poor cold water on anyone else's view that Frankel gave some of the best performances they'd seen, well, the motivation is all too apparent  |
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trying to make out you are superior to everyone else on this forum
Back to the wearisome old trick of turning a one on one argument into some mythical crowd you're representing. Pathetic  |
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I will not apologise to you or anyone else Figgis for being honourable.
It is a pity that Timeform, the BHA, Balldoyle, Frankel's and the media could learn from. They have been totally dishonest every step of the way and just because the end result suits you you are prepared to overlook these dishonesty's. In fact defend them. Well shame on you. Honour? You don't even understand the word. And no matter what you say or how you spin things to make your point I will never be afraid to speak out against injustice and speak up for honesty and truth against the lying and greed you are so happy to protect, represent, aid and abet. You can carry on living in your fantasy land Figgis but be sure when you talk nonsense again about something you were obviously clueless I will be there to remind you of such. That is the very least I can do. |
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*Frankel's connections
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I will not apologise to you or anyone else Figgis for being honourable.
I will never be afraid to speak out against injustice and speak up for honesty and truth against the lying and greed you are so happy to protect, represent, aid and abet. Yep, I'm sure you'll be remembered along with all those other great fighters of injustice, MLK Jr, Pankhurst, etc. Rather than just some ranter with an obsessional bias against a highly rated racehorse on an insignificant betting forum. Sense of self importance and proportion well intact  |
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Dancing Brave was a better horse than Frankel, period! The horses he beat were far superior than those that Frenkel beat. And, he won The Arc too beating Bering (unbeaten prior) and Trytich (a wonderful mare); he also won The Eclipse, King George, etc; best horse ever ridden, according to Eddery.
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You really should read what you write Figgis. First you accuse me of writing to the press, a one man crusade, ratings firms, accusations of collusion then you accuse me of plying my trade on an insignificant betting forum. Shame on you.
This insignificant betting forum is where you ply your trade and there are those on here (me included) who, on occasion, respect your views, although I will speak up when I think you talk nonsense, yet you belittle us the very first instance you can. Shame on you you sad, bitter little man. The day may come when you respect other peoples views and you are able to hold a balanced and sensible conversation but sadly I have thought that for a long time now but seen no progress yet. |
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This insignificant betting forum is where you ply your trade
I know it is. It passes the time between bets. I am always interested in other people's views concerning betting and potential outcomes of races (something you offer very little of compared to the amount of time you spend on irrational ante Frankel posts). There are many people on here coming at a race from a different angle than me whose views I respect. I obviously get something out of being here or I wouldn't be here. However I do have a sense of proportion about what this is. In the scheme of things it IS an insignificant betting forum for the small percentage of the population that are concerned with such trivial matters. I don't start making self regarding speeches like I'm George Galloway at the US Senate |
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Figgis I think you will find it was you who brought up Frankel's 2000 Guineas, not me.
And I think you will find it was Penzance who brought up Dancing Brave having his rating lowered, not me. But then true to form you attempted to slaughter every comment thereafter I made. It is just your way to try to impose your view on anyone who has a different opinion. You do not have a monopoly on the right opinion you know. I think you will find that is why so few question a single word you say. But that doesn't bother me. You continue to make wild unsubstantiated and stupid comments then I will tell you. It is the least I can do. And you may learn something you didn't know. |
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I said on his performance on Sunday (assuming he carried it over to next year over a mile) I reckon he would've won any recent Guineas barring Frankel's. Which obviously includes the winners over those Guineas. I think he would've beaten all the recent Guineas winners bar Frankel. Anyone else is entitled to believe he wouldn't have won other Guineas. Maybe they believe Sunday's performance wasn't even good enough to win an average Guineas. Fair enough. We didn't get that though did we? No we got the same old tiresome sh1te about how Frankel beat the poorest Guineas field since the pattern was established.
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*winners OF those Guineas.
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If you are going to continue to use Frankel's 2000 as a benchmark then I think it is completely reasonable to point out to you that the Frankel's 2000 Guineas was the worst since the Pattern began. I can see nothing wrong with that. This is a horse racing forum after all.
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Brigust, after Frankel was retired you said it had all been media hype about him and strongly guaranteed in only a few years there would be another horse to match or overtake Frankel and everyone would realise what only you could see, that he wasn't all that after all. Since his retirement you've been dying for another horse to come along and make your prediction real. I often think that's the only interest you have in the game as betting doesn't seem to figure all that much. I remember you saying at one point that Australia could be the one. You must be agonisingly wishing for Pinatubo to go on to be the real deal.
So, what is your opinion on HIM at this stage? |
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If you are going to continue to use Frankel's 2000 as a benchmark
The winning performance is the benchmark, deary me. |
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Frankel's winning performance was a 6 length beating of Dubawi Gold rated 101 with Native Knan 3rd. Dubawi Gold and Native Khan never won a Group 1 in their careers.
Then compare it with Night of Thunder's half length beating of Kingman rated 117 (4 Group 1s) with Australia 3rd. On the bare facts what would you say was the best winning performance? Ignoring the hype of course. |
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I rated it the fastest Guineas winning performance I'd seen at the time and nothing has changed. Nothing to do with Timeform, BHA or anyone else. It was the best I've seen. So before you come out with some pathetic comment about following Timeform blindly, it was me who said they were talking out of their ar5eholes about TDH when you were saying he could be another Frankel. Night Of Thunder would've been about just over 3 lengths ahead of DG, imo.
You think Frankel was overrated, I don't. Move on. I've heard all this stuff before about Dubawi Gold. Christ, Green Desert was no more than an average Gp1 winning sprinter. He only beat Last Tycoon in the July Cup because he got first run in a slowly run race and LT's jockey was asleep. Then narrowly beat Hallgate at Haydock, a horse I had a lot of time for, but hardly great Gp1 form. Fact is Green Desert barely got 7f. So, I know it's difficult weaning you off your Frankel obsession but let's try. What do you think of Pinatubo now and going forward? |
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I don't see anything wrong with asking you a question Figgis. You do it to everyone else then rubbish their reply. How you can rate Frankel's the fastest winning performance does beggar belief. Most of the other jockeys thought he was the pacemaker even Hughes on the 2nd. And the next time they met Frankel beat Dubawi Gold by 13.75 lengths. You also have no idea where the best place to be on the racecourse was and the time was slower than Night of Thunder. But if you think it was the fastest performance best of luck with that one.
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As far as Pinatubo is concerned he just looked a bit precocious for me but there is no doubt the performance was out of the top drawer hence his rating. He certainly didn't look like he was stopping so a mile will be a gimme. My experience of precociously bred horses is the US connection. I think Shamardal was a US bred horse. It shouldn't affect his 3 year old career though.
I won't be backing him ante post at the price but at the moment the Darley Dewhurst looks a certain next stop given his owners. |
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You do it to everyone else then rubbish their reply
Again resorting to speaking for some mythical crowd as backup  . Whose reply have I rubbished regarding their opinion on a racehorse? If anyone thinks Frankel wasn't the best/fastest Guineas winner in recent times that's up to them. I've said why I believe he was and they can believe why he wasn't. I don't try to convince them they are wrong about their opinion and mine is right. If the numbers don't add up that's a different matter.You are a massive hypocrite regarding this matter. As you don't just leave it by saying why you think Frankel was over overrated, you rubbish anyone else's viewpoint "How you can rate Frankel's the fastest winning performance does beggar belief".. You then accuse punters who have a high opinion of a racehorse of being in cahoots with the lying, greedy rich. Hysterical. At this moment I think Pinatubo put up a very fast performance on Sunday. One good enough to win most Guineas, which definitely isn't the same as thinking he will win one. Some people might think there are reasons to doubt the form and I wouldn't rubbish anyone who says so. They could be right. It could be another overrated Celtic Swing type win. I would argue in this case there was no soft ground to exaggerate the win and looking at how Pinatubo won previously and the time he clocked it certainly isn't stretching credibility to take Sunday's form and time literally. |
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And just an aside that I am sure you would like to know.
AOB has won the Irish 2000 Guineas 9 times this century and every time that winner has then run in the St James Palace Stakes. Except which one? You guessed it Frankel's. Have a coconut. |
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As far as Pinatubo is concerned he just looked a bit precocious for me
Precocious how? |
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Yep, Cecil and co must've been quaking in their boots that ROC might have another crack at them. They dodged a bullet there
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Well, maybe Cecil in his Guccis
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The ready made article. He looked quick and ready to go. Not sure anyone would think there was more to work on or improvement to come. But that is subjective. He doesn't need to improve necessarily and he may just be easy to get ready.
You may sneer Figgis but a believe there is every chance ROC would have beaten Frankel in the SJP. He was only beaten 2.25 lengths by Frankel in the Dewhurst and given he was rated 4lbs better than Zoffany and Zoffany was only beaten a hard fought half a length in the SJP it is not as clear cut as you may want everyone to think. |
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Stick that in Henry's Gucci's.
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it is not as clear cut as you may want everyone to think
Who are all these doubters you continue to think you're speaking up for? |
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Did you not see the Racing Post questionnaire Frankel or Dancing Brave? Probably not.
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See how you swerved the point there about Roderic O'Connor, Figgis.
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Under normal circumstances ROC would have been bang fit for the Guineas but he finished 13th. He would then have gone for the Irish Guineas, which he won, then the SJP. Just Like Canford Cliffs for example. He was beaten in the Guineas then won the Irish Guineas and the SJP and the Sussex Stakes. Given what happened to Frankel in the SJP it is not inconceivable that ROC would have won. Agreements aside. It stinks.
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Given what happened to Frankel in the SJP it is not inconceivable that ROC would have won
The leaders in that SJP clearly went much too fast, I doubt there is anyone who would disagree with that. Zoffany and a few others, but particularly Zoffany got so close, because they were dropped out off the strong pace. The easiest two ways to clock a decent time, which also translates to running most efficiently, is to either set your own efficient pace in front or make late progress off an overly strong pace. The form book is littered with horses that ran above their usual level making late headway off a strong pace. Now Coolmore couldn't have known the early pace was going to be overly strong but they knew Frankel had a pacemaker and it was going to be run fast. ROC was a front runner, or at least was always prominent. He made the running in the Irish Guineas and the Dewhurst. He wouldn't have had a prayer of holding on in a race like that. They also knew their horse had just had a hard race to beat a runner Frankel had stuffed. Why would you keep banging your head against a wall when everything so far doesn't give you a squeak? We're also talking about a yard who nearly always know when their horses are primed for a peak effort and when they're not. The market tells us that. You could argue that he was only beaten over longer trips afterwards but he was absolutely useless and it's a fair shout to say the horse had 'gone' after the Curragh and they suspected it. |
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Did you not see the Racing Post questionnaire Frankel or Dancing Brave? Probably not.
No I didn't see it but I'm sure it's mainly old men who still buy the RP. Most old men will usually say things were better in their day. No surprise if DB won. |
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Wrong Figgis it was a questionnaire for all in racing mainly jockeys etc and Frankel won. Quite a few older members did go DB though. Quite right too I am convinced DB would have murdered Cirrus Des Aigles and Zoffany etc. In fact which horse Frankel did beat do you think DB couldn't have?
I disagree that they went too fast. Frankel made all in the 2000 Guineas and there was no reason to think the pace here from Frankel was too fast. Personally I think Frankel hadn't fully recovered from the Guineas exertions. As far as ROC is concerned he had only really had one run and given I think Frankel ran below par then it is conceivable. |
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Dancing Brave was a better horse than Frankel, period! The horses he beat were far superior than those that Frenkel beat. And, he won The Arc too beating Bering (unbeaten prior) and Trytich (a wonderful mare); he also won The Eclipse, King George, etc; best horse ever ridden, according to Eddery.
Triptych's proximity to DB in the Arc is one reason why the rating was too high. She was no Enable - very well exposed and never won one of the top 12f race. If you accept DB's original rating you also have to believe Shardari and Triptych were two of the greatest middle distance horses ever - they weren't. But no doubt DB was the best horse Eddery ever rode. |
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At least DB ran against a multiple Gr1 winning filly I don't think Frankel even met one. And all of the talk about running as a 4 year old he only met 2 three year olds Gabrial and Pastorious.
AT who was the best horse Frankel beat then? |
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Brigust, so how good do you think Green Desert was at a mile? Shardari hadn't even contested a Gp1 until midway through his 4yo season, something which you usually hold against today's runners. Which great horses did he beat prior to the King George? Something you always use as a necessary criteria today. Which piece of form before the KG meant that beating him 3/4 of a length in receipt of 13lbs, no less (only 11lbs today which means the 3yos then were about 1 length better off), would be classed as a great performance?
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