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woodmanchester
27 Jul 19 04:26
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Date Joined: 25 Aug 11
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Looks the real deal to me

2000 Guineas 12/1

The Derby 28/1

Cant see a combined option anywhere?

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Replies: 309
By:
davieboy.
When: 27 Jul 19 07:18
Looks a miler tops on pedigree
By:
impossible123
When: 27 Jul 19 09:58
Dosage Index does not indicate Derby suitability. But 2/1 for the Vintage Stakes is fairly appealing given the uncertainty regarding a few for the race, I believe.
By:
jamesp
When: 28 Jul 19 15:11
The Gr.2 Vintage Stakes at Goodwood on Tuesday is the obvious next step for Charlie Appleby's colt, but I'm not so sure that he's a good thing for this contest. It's interesting that Aidan O'Brien is prepared to let Lope Y Fernandez (well beaten runner-up to Pinatubo in the Chesham Stakes) reoppose: he must think there's more to come from his colt. Platinum Star and Visinari (both close-up in the Gr.2 July Stakes) could provide a stern challenge, with the latter in particular likely to benefit from the step up in trip. Richard Hannon's Mystery Power (winner of the Gr.2 Superlative Stakes) is smart and well regarded and worked very well the other day in preparation for this. If all seven entries take part (and there must be some doubt about this, given the uncertain weather forecast for Tuesday), it looks like being quite a competitive renewal. Pinatubo came through powerfully in the end to win the Ascot contest quite impressively, but physically (to my eyes at least) he looks a real strong two-year-old, and I'm not sure he's necessarily the type to go on and win mile classics next season. We shall see.
By:
impossible123
When: 28 Jul 19 19:08
You'd be right having looked deeper into the stats of the other main challengers eg Visinari. Also, after the recent poor runs of his stablemates eg Summer Romance and Kings Command, and Emotionless in the past his connections cannot be relied upon to deliver either.
By:
Can't Catch Me
When: 29 Jul 19 12:42
Cracking race tomorrow. 2 year old race of the season for me... 4 very high class horses battling it out.
By:
dunlaying
When: 29 Jul 19 17:02
He has a lot on his plate tomorrow . I think he is too short .
By:
Figgis
When: 30 Jul 19 13:31
Best 2yo performance I've seen this year. Not up to Guineas class yet but will still be hard to beat here if remaining in the same form as last time.
By:
impossible123
When: 30 Jul 19 13:41
It was an annihilation. What a performance!
By:
FOYLESWAR
When: 30 Jul 19 13:43
well done fav bakkas and charlton
By:
impossible123
When: 30 Jul 19 16:28
His next assignment could be the National Stakes at The Curragh in September, why? I do not think he's entered either; just put him away for next season or wait for the Vertem Futurity at Doncaster or Dewhurst Stakes at Newmarket.

His stable has an unenviable record of 2yr olds not making the Guineas the following year eg Emotionless and Quorto.
By:
woodmanchester
When: 12 Aug 19 08:14
12/1 Pinatubo Guineas not looking bad

7/2 best now
By:
Platini
When: 22 Aug 19 13:42
potential challenger now ?
By:
impossible123
When: 22 Aug 19 13:46
Mums Tipple? I think Gosden was trying to nick the horse from Hannon there pecking his owners on the cheek.
By:
Platini
When: 22 Aug 19 23:26
Laugh

wouldn't be a bad move for the horse.   

As long as Coolmore or Godolphin don't steal him. things could be exciting next season.
By:
impossible123
When: 26 Aug 19 15:07
Platinum Star has just advertised his form with a comfortable win at Ripon today. Let's hope he goes to post next May at Newmarket.
By:
layingisthewayforward
When: 04 Sep 19 18:08
He's odds on for the national stakes. Has anyone heard or read anything from the trainer confirming that is the plan? Thanks
By:
Figgis
When: 12 Sep 19 15:16
I now have Mum's Tipple the highest 2yo this season, a couple of pounds higher than Pinatubo. However MT was obviously over 6f so it remains to be seen how he'll perform over further.
By:
impossible123
When: 14 Sep 19 20:58
How far does he win by tomorrow? No betting on it yet.
By:
Figgis
When: 15 Sep 19 14:28
The chance of one of the others improving to pass Pinatubo's latest form is slim, so 4/9 on form alone would be a bit of value. However I'd say the bet is more about Pinatubo running to his best or not rather than the opposition overtaking him. I've seen lots of 2yos disappoint after running a fast race, Canford Cliffs was one of many, so it's just a race to watch for me.
By:
impossible123
When: 15 Sep 19 14:39
He must be odds-on no after this scintillating win - 8 lengths or more perhaps.
By:
clacton
When: 15 Sep 19 14:57
Just beaten a horse rated 110 by 9L.  What will Pinatubo be rated after this. Frankel was 126 at the end of his 2-y-o season.
By:
A_T
When: 15 Sep 19 15:06
would expect a higher rating that Frankel as a 2yo - you have to assume Ballydoyle sent their best for this race
By:
Figgis
When: 15 Sep 19 15:25
There was a lot of rubbish written last year about Too Darn Hot being the best 2yo since Frankel, wasn't even close. I would have no disagreement though with anyone who says Pinatubo just put up the best 2yo performance since Frankel. For me he's already at a level that would've taken every single recent Guineas bar Frankel's. So it seems all Godolphin need to do is keep him sound and get him back to this level next spring. Then you look at their record of doing that with previous hopes and it looks anything but a formality. Aside from that, my other doubt about Pinatubo is that, unlike Frankel, although he was quite well regarded from the beginning he wasn't initially rated a potentially outstanding prospect. There is no doubt that this horse has made huge leaps with every run on a racecourse, so more like an Arazi than a Frankel in that regard. I'd say, on the whole, horses that make such big improvement as 2yos are less inclined to go forwards as 3yos, often going backwards instead.
By:
brigust1
When: 15 Sep 19 15:56
Just for the record Frankel's was the worst 2000 Guineas since the Pattern started in 1971. When they computerised the top 2000 Guineas he wasn't even placed.
Also Brigadier Gerard was the outsider of 5 at 16/1 on his first run because he too had showed nothing at home but bolted up.
I have to say that was a startling National Stakes and the Dewhurst appears to be the next target.
My worry is that Pinatubo won with so much exuberance and was allowed to show how much better than the others he was that to race too often like that will need to me managed or could end in tears. I would have been a lot happier to see him win a couple of lengths on the bridle.
By:
Figgis
When: 15 Sep 19 16:33
Just for the record Frankel's was the worst 2000 Guineas since the Pattern started in 1971. When they computerised the top 2000 Guineas he wasn't even placed.

Who exactly are "they"? Are "they" any good at doing computerised predictions pre-race? Or do "they" specialise in fannying around with mythical races where nothing can be proved?

Incidentally, which 2000 Guineas performance in the current era would you personally rate above that of Frankel's?

Also Brigadier Gerard was the outsider of 5 at 16/1 on his first run because he too had showed nothing at home but bolted up

As I said, on the whole, not every single time. He was one of the exceptions and it's telling that you need to go back to 1970 for an example. My point anyway was more about horses who continue to make big improvement throughout their 2yo season. Most of the outstanding Guineas winners showed special form within their first couple of runs, whereas many of the ones who progressed and progressed to look special 2yos failed to go on the following year.
By:
roadrunner46
When: 15 Sep 19 16:53
hopefully pinatubo will train on, looks a real star of the race track, thought would be a long time before id see another horse like frankel, now im not
saying its as good or will be better than frankel, very exciting horse for racing fan's next year.
By:
brigust1
When: 15 Sep 19 17:29
Considering Frankel's was the worst then it goes without saying that all of the others are better. And I don't have to go back to 1970 that was just an example I know of.
I don't disagree that Pinatubo could go one way or the other but he looks so far above anything else then how he is managed will be extremely important. Just as some claim and I agree, a lot of horses run below par after winning in a fast time so I am sure allowing horses to run to their full potential every time could have the same effect. I do hope not in this case because he does look exciting and we need that. I don't disagree about Too Darn Hot but there are so many not exceptional races then the odd exception tends to stand out that much more when it comes around.
By:
FOYLESWAR
When: 15 Sep 19 17:32
well done to anyone who ot the big prices .
By:
brigust1
When: 15 Sep 19 17:35
Actually that is not exactly true because the 1983 2000 Guineas won by Lomond and the 1978 won by Roland Gardens were equally as bad but the were placed ahead because of the number of Group 1 races available to run in then when compared with 2011.
By:
Figgis
When: 15 Sep 19 17:41
Considering Frankel's was the worst then it goes without saying that all of the others are better

So let's get this straight, you think Frankel's Guineas winning performance was the worst Guineas winning performance in the current era? Quite extraordinary, to put it politely Happy
By:
Figgis
When: 15 Sep 19 17:47
Brigust, how far ahead of Frankel would you place Magna Grecia's Guineas effort transplanted into Frankel's Guineas? How would you price up a match race between them? Both horses going into the race at the peak of their powers on good ground and a fair pace guaranteed. Forgetting supply and demand, I'm simply talking about priced on merit.
By:
brigust1
When: 15 Sep 19 17:49
No I never said that. I said the 2000 Guineas was the worst. Not Frankel's performance.
By:
brigust1
When: 15 Sep 19 17:51
Be good to get your facts right.
By:
Figgis
When: 15 Sep 19 17:59
I said the 2000 Guineas was the worst. Not Frankel's performance

So a completely irrelevant statement to make then, as it's merit of the winning performance that matters.

My worry is that Pinatubo won with so much exuberance and was allowed to show how much better than the others he was that to race too often like that will need to me managed or could end in tears. I would have been a lot happier to see him win a couple of lengths on the bridle


Frankel was always allowed and even encouraged to show his exuberance. None of this given a cosy bridle win stuff to be saved for another day. Curiously you never give him any credit for that but I'm sure it's just an oversight on your part where this horse is concerned rather than any perverse bias against him Wink
By:
brigust1
When: 15 Sep 19 18:17
Funny all the press comments were how brilliantly Henry got him to settle. Maybe you know better, or at least think you do. Wink

And if you don't judge a horse by the quality of horses he beat then that would be you. Not everyone is like that. Some do judge a horse by the quality of horses he beats.
By:
impossible123
When: 15 Sep 19 18:33
El Gran Signor, Chief Singer, Lear Fan and Rousillon.
By:
Figgis
When: 15 Sep 19 18:42
Funny all the press comments were how brilliantly Henry got him to settle. Maybe you know better, or at least think you do.

A completely different point to the one made. The point made was about allowing a horse a cosy bridle win rather than letting it down for a demolishing job which might take a lot out of the horse.

And if you don't judge a horse by the quality of horses he beat then that would be you

I said for me if Pinatubo can repeat the level of performance he showed today over a mile in the spring I reckon he would've won every Guineas in recent times bar Frankel's. That obviously means beating the winners of those Guineas, not just beating the horses those winners beat, so the quality of the also rans has already been factored in.

Everyone will have their own judgement of Pinatubo's career so far, but personally I have him improving 13lbs from Epsom to Ascot, 7lbs from Ascot to Goodwood and another 7lbs from then till today. That's an astonishing level of progress with every run. As he's already at potential superstar level I would be amazed if he can progress like that again in the Dewhurst but obviously he doesn't need to improve at all. As to next year, normally when people say a horse hasn't trained on they mean it hasn't improved from 2 to 3. In this case I don't think that matters as he's already ahead of a typical Guineas winner in my view. It's just that he's made such huge leaps as a 2yo that I wonder if it's all going to be about this season for him.

The Dewhurst will probably require another big effort. I'm thinking he's surely reached a peak now. Will they just be able to keep him ticking over at this level next year? Once a horse stops improving there's a danger of going backwards. He's the most exciting 2yo since Frankel but I'm a bit sceptical about him long term.
By:
FELTFAIR
When: 15 Sep 19 18:44
El Gran Signor?? Get it right Bungle.
By:
brigust1
When: 15 Sep 19 19:41
That would be 15th. Felt.
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