Still wince every time El Gran Senor is mentioned after getting beat in the Derby.

Pre-race, Pinatubo was rated (BHA) 5L superior to Amory over 7f.

Based on the winning distance using their method of calculation he has to rated 128 tomorrow although whether they increase his rating that much is another story, I personally think they will go 127.

I stated on my lay thread yesterday (pre-race) he was the best 2 year old i had seen this season (including Mums Tipple) yesterdays’ run in a very fast time only strengthened my opinion. I think we have to go back to 2010 to find an equal G1/2 year old performance, Dream Ahead who won the Middle park by 9L (and didn’t make the 2000 Guineas). He will not be beaten this year, even by MT if he also takes the Dewhurst route and i would back him accordingly, but there is no way i would take 6/4 for next years’ 2000 guineas at this stage.

Good morning Laurie,

I would also like to go to Newmarket for the Dewhurst, but i'm in Paris the weekend before (Arc) returning to München on the Monday evening, so it would mean travelling again 3 days later, although not impossible of course.

Dream Ahead ran in the Frankel Dewhurst, in fact it was billed as the 2 year old race of ther century, there was another so called superstar Saamidd, all 3 were unbeaten at the time.

Pinatubo is much better than Two Darn Hot (who i always maintained was over-rated) he was mega impressive yesterday.

the smile on buicks face as a he was pulling up said a lot ,like a treasure hunter finding a kilo nugget of gold ,this thing looks a freak so far ahead of everything ,lets hope connections dont fook it up .

without trying to put a dampner on it ,  worth noting a fair few "superstars have not progressed and  6 months  and a winter is a long time and the gap between him and the rest can be closed .so 6/4 not that attractive at this stage .god knows what price he will be if he does a similar job in the dewhurst!

sorry brigust our posts crossed yep echo your thoughts

Over-rated Laurie, what makes you say that

Saamidd was dubbed the new Pegasus by connections (Suroor trained) and went into the Dewhurst 2/2, but finished last of 6 and never won in 8 subsequent races.

Not good at stud either, only sired one, a filly who has only raced once, an egg and spoon maiden in India.

if i was on at the big prices i would deffo take my stake back will still be on a decent bet and as we see the other week with the champion hurdler even of off the racecourse freakish  things can happen .

I really do hope he is as good as he looks and what I in particular will be watching for next year, and we can all join in, is to see how many opponents Ballydoyle field against him. As we know they fielded 23 against Sea The Stars in his 3 year old career but only 2 against the Galileo son Frankel (no idea why) . And of those two the first was not off and the second an outsider they never ran in this country again. There is a bit of fun for you all.

my 1st instinct is to take these types on but 1 or 2 come along that you know you are throwing money into the wind opposing them ..........frankel ,big bucks in his pomp.

only 2 against the Galileo son Frankel (no idea why)

Just to back up the conspiracy theory, can you state which horses with even a prayer that you believe Ballydoyle held back on that year?

i wont be laying him and as  i have missed the big prices on pinatubo , his prominence in the betting does however leave some big prices on some  other late maturing types who could progress, have already backed tsar and will look for a few others after the dewhurst or over the winter.

It is difficult not to get carried away with Pinatubo's performance yesterday but Monoski is the fly in the ointment .

Had any other trainer trained Roderic O'Connor it would not have finished 13th

Ok, so you're saying O'Brien deliberately had him unfit for the Guineas. Even though they knew that if Frankel was on form they had very little chance of beating him (the horse ROC went on to beat in Ireland under a length was stuffed 6 lengths by Frankel) but their horse would still have a good chance of bagging a place. Or if Frankel failed to fire they could even win. Interesting theory .

if any other trainer trained Zoffany it's next run would have been the Sussex Stakes

This time you're saying they thought they were seriously getting close to beating Frankel with Zoffany and one more push might do it but they didn't want to burst his bubble? Another interesting theory. I'd say they just saw what most of us saw. That it wasn't the most well judged ride from Queally / possibly Frankel was even temporarily feeling the effects of the Guineas, and they were extremely lucky to get so close so let's go for far easier pickings in PJP, a race Zoffany still didn't manage to win.

Still no mention of any other possible contenders they ducked the issue with.

The same goes with the QE11 Stakes

Which older milers would you have run that they didn't? They shelled out for Excelebration then pitched him against Frankel in the Lockinge and QE11. Don't tell me, you would've had another crack at Frankel with him in the Sussex with a new cunning tactical plan?

the came goes with the Champion Stakes

Prior to the Champion Stakes they'd just run their best older middle distance horse, St Nicholas Abbey, against Frankel. They even ran two pacemakers to try to expose any stamina limitations Frankel might have over a trip some said he'd be vulnerable at. Result, SNA stuffed by 7. The ground turned soft at Ascot, which was far from ideal for Frankel, but O'Brien had also said previously that SNA wasn't as good on soft. Would you have still run him against Frankel at Ascot? And again which other horses would you have run there that you think they allowed Frankel to dodge?

They bought Excelebration, some could say because he was keeping Frankel's rating down then he proceeded to run the two worst races against Frankel including the one where he was rated 147 by Timeform. Shocking run at Ascot.

St Nicholas Abbey had never won over 10f even being beaten by his pacemaker. I suggest you watch the race again and see the ride he was given. And listen to the comments of the commentator. Then watch the ride Murtagh gave the Ballydoyle runner against Sea the Stars.

The top three year old Guineas and Derby winner Camelot went for the Triple Crown instead of running against Frankel. No other trainer in the country would have missed the opportunity to take Frankel on. The reward was immense. No, I don't think he would have beaten him.

So, as you don't think he'd have beaten him do you not think they thought the same? Instead of any absurd notion that they were giving Frankel an easy? Camelot only just won a weakish Guineas (not as bad as this year's) by getting up late. He was no Sea The Stars, 12f was always going to be his optimum. Would you have seriously dropped him back to 10f to chase Frankel rather than opt for what looked an easy opportunity to be the first male triple crown winner since Nijinsky? Maybe you would, but it was hardly a baffling decision by them to go the route they did. If he'd have won the Leger easily then it could be said what might have been if the horse was in another yard. Fact is he didn't even win the Leger.

The top older horse So You Think was sent off to stud early with a possible injury. Really after running all over the world suddenly just before there was a chance to take Frankel on he was sent off to stud. Really?

Yes really. A lot of people would say running hard all over the world up to the age of 6 would increase the chance of a horse eventually picking up an injury. Not you apparently. Fact is he was being aimed at the Eclipse next, a race he won the previous year, a race that wasn't even on Frankel's agenda. Mystery solved, no conspiracy, nothing to see here

Then watch the ride Murtagh gave the Ballydoyle runner against Sea the Stars

Yes, this might be news to you, but jockeys, at least the competent ones, do tend to be a bit more vigorous in the saddle when they're in a neck and neck battle approaching the final furlong with another runner who only beats them a length, compared to one whose backside they're peering at from 7 lengths

Brigust, so what did you make of Moore in the SJP? Disobeying orders? Or were they just air shots and him pretending to row a boat?

Pinatubo gets 134 rating from Timeform